Sigs wrote:ywing14 wrote:
It doesn't matter how large their navies are it just needs to be bigger than their neighbors. If the GA doesn't get involved in everyone's squabble we could still see small navies fighting each other. Grayson and Masada were doing. Manticore already said it wouldn't act as Frontier Security. They don't plan on involving themselves in very single thing that occurs out there. Also don't think they'd use an SD or CLAC when a Nike BC is much faster but that's beside the point.
I never said they should involve themselves in all squabbles between newly independent systems, as long as the war does not involve EE violations or is not directed at one of the allies, it is none of the GA's business. If one side asks for diplomatic assistance the GA can act as a mediator to try and resolve the conflict but they don't bear any responsibility to police and protect everyone else.
Besides if the GA offers some sort of military equipment for sale, some will take the offer and other will not, there will be a period of turmoil which would be unavoidable and then eventually it will settle down into single system and multi system nations and alliances. If someone has no desire to protect themselves, I see no reason for the GA to force their assistance on them.
But that's exactly how Frontier Security started out!!! It started with the best intentions of protecting these worlds and morphed into something else as time went on. Silesia is literally the best example as Honor said at the end of the book!! You point is the exact opposite by basing LACs in squadrons in different systems you're doing exactly what they are trying to avoid. Patrols roving the space lanes is less likely to lead to Frontier Security than basing ships and LACs in star systems until you believe they can take care of themselves.
No I most defiantly am not, most shell worlds and some verge and protectorates might be able to take over control of local military assets quickly while others will take time. If the GA moves into a system when the system requests their presence and starts off with the understanding that they are withdrawing their naval forces within a certain time period wether the system is ready or not it won't turn into Frontier Security.
In the protectorates and the verge, 20 or 30 LAC's that the GA provides should be more then enough to deal with any immediate threats. And those LAC's would be well within their capabilities for operation and control.
]How can the GA not afford to spend time building light combatants to fight piracy? They were able to afford it for over 200 years in Silesia? What's changed? Manticore has a bigger population base, crews are smaller, and a larger tax base now. Not to mention they can trade with the ROH again. Sounds a lot cheaper than building Hundreds or Thousands of SD(P)s. Silesia is 60 systems split between the IAN and RMN for several hundred years, while you are proposing that the GA now do anti piracy in a as of yet undetermined number of systems the could number in the thousands and are spread throughout the entire area of human habitation.
There is a difference between can and should, just because they can does not mean they should. If the GA can give military equipment, training and assistance to a lot of the shell and protectorates/verge in order to ensure their own security why should they forgo that and instead shoulder the burden themselves? Why should they commit thousands of warships which will need massive logistical support far from home, when they don't have to do anything of the sort for longer then a few years?
Why should the GA take responsibility for anti-piracy and commerce protection in the Kingdom of Meyers when the kingdom would be more then capable of manning its own modest fleet within a few years?
The SKM didn't want to conquer Silesia, it did so out of political and military necessity. What you are suggesting is to send thousands of light combatants into anti-piracy for an undetermined period of time, what I am suggesting is to provide the minimum level of security in as many systems as request it and give them the means to defend themselves in a realistic timeframe.
How is it going to be militarily cheaper to have your vessels searching for pirates and protecting merchant ships than it will be provide military protection to the Shell and the Verge until they are able to rearm themselves or for a lot of them probably build a navy that they haven't maintained in generations?[/quote] Most definitely allowing the shell and verge to re-arm themselves. One is a decade or two long mission the other might be a century or two with quite a few casualties in the process. Do you think the galaxy will be immediately plagued by pirates? And how complicated would it be to place some LAC's in a system protect said system and let them eventually take over the protection of their own homes? I doubt it would take that much effort for most of the shell.
All of your ideas point out to doing exactly what Frontier Security was originally intended to do.... Which is the opposite of what Commerce Protection is My ideas come with a timeline, the GA moves in, tells them ready or not we are leaving in x number of months or years. What you are suggesting is deploying thousands of ships for hundreds of years which will require dozens of bases and millions of people to support that effort. You cannot deploy a person for decades at a time and expect that person to not burnout. For every ship deployed on anti-piracy you need two at home to support it, 1 just finished a tour and 1 is getting ready for a tour. If you don't do see you end up with burned out crews and poorly maintained ships.
You literally want to do everything that Honor said they shouldn't do in the last chapter. You want to protect the shell and verge indefinitely, I want to protect them on a specific timeline and let them do it themselves 5,10,15 or 20 years down the road. With my plan 20 years after UH the shell and verge would for the most part be sufficiently armed to protect themselves from pirates and things would have settled down. In your plan the GA would be committed in anti-piracy and commerce protection for centuries. So with my plan we are done in 20 years, with your plan 250 years later you would still have thousands of warships deployed for commerce protection.
The situation in the Protectorates promised to be more complicated, and probably ugly. In some instances—like Chotěboř, Seraphim, Włocławek, Mobius, and Swallow—the local star systems looked to be adjusting well, with a minimum of bloodshed and civil unrest. In other cases…not so much. There were a lot of scores to pay off out there in the Fringe, especially on the planets whose native oligarchs had been deepest in OFS’s pocket, and OFS wasn’t going out of its way to engineer any soft landings. In fact, some OFS governors and managers were clearly determined to make the entire process as ugly as they possibly could.
What you want to do is great in theory but the Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions. Like committing thousands of light warships for an undetermined period of time and in 100 years some political will start to wonder why we don't make the shell and verge pay for the service provided. In 100 years with my plan the shell and verge would BE providing their own commerce protection.
You seem to be wedded to the idea of commerce protection and want the GA to commit to it when they don't need to.
Building SD(P)s in smaller number is still just as labor intensive, you could crew 16 Rolands for 1 Medusa B. What makes more sense to build when at the moment you've got maybe 1000 star systems to visit and your current destroyer can take out the SLs BCs? With all the wormhole junctions it don't think they need as many bases as you say. These vessels operate in small number or on there own all the time 6-9 month deployments aren't all that long. SD(P)s protect your home, light combatants on commerce protection all over the galaxy do not.
What the GA needs to do is commit as much of their light combatants as they can afford along with as much of their LAC's as they can afford to protection of the Shell and Verge build LAC's, DD's and CL's en mass and sell it to the shell and verge systems. Train them and leave.
But they can't in fact be sure the locals can do it on there own.
That is their problem, the GA has no obligation to be the galactic policemen, if the locals are not willing to get their act together the GA has no reason to force them. Besides if the Locals cannot get their act together and engage in civil war, I think pirates and commerce protection would be really far down on their list.
Silesia couldn't handle it for centuries.
Because Silesia was one nation rather then hundreds of individual systems. The SKM couldn't go into a system and arm its local government to protect itself in the shell and verge they can. Plus what if the SKM had gone to war with Silesia in the 1700? What if they had forces change on the government of Silesia back then? Save themselves 200 years of casualties and battles, and save hundreds of millions of lives. Silesia is not a good example because it could have been handled differently with more bloodshed and financial effort upfront but less so in the long term.
Who's to say when the other worlds will be ready. Who's to say the GA won't do joint patrols with other nations or planets. Build up relations.
[/quote] If the GA gives them a timeline and then leaves at the end of that timeline those nations will either sink or swim. And I would say most of the verge would be willing to endure anything to ensure their independence. And yes the GA can join patrols, but that does not involve maintain ALL patrols and would not require thousands of warships.[/quote]
You keep saying your ideas come with a timeline but in fact they don't. Look at the USA? They had a timeline too. 15 years later there are still troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can sit here all day and say there is a timeline or that you have a timeline in mind. But that's completely meaningless. Because by specifically stationing LACs you're making those worlds dependent on you for security. How can you sit here and honestly say all of those worlds will be ready to govern or protect themselves in 5-10 years? You can't!
I'm not saying you need thousands of light vessels doing anti-piracy. However, I feel that if the GA has about 600 SDs that they probably have at the very least a couple thousand lighter vessels. Trying to place 30 LACs in these various systems which are not going to be able to provide any real support to them is much more expensive then having a couple hundred light vessels plodding the space ways and making stops at various planets.
How is Silesia a bad example of commerce protection? You can argue shoulda woulda coulda all day for the political situation there all day. But you can't ignore what the queen and honor said.
