SPOILER end of the MA

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:The FSV would probably look like a Merchant Vessel to most pirates so it would be easy to slip one in to a convoy or two. Have it configured as a LAC tender and with a few pods. You've got a pretty decent way to defend the convoy.

Or have 3 Roland's to defend the convoy at at 19% of the tonnage and a third of the crew.

We don't know what the crew size of an FSV is. but 3 rolands comes out to about 186. But your point is well taken. My argument would be that an FSV has the Weapons of a light Cruiser, carries a truncated LAC squadron, and still has room to carry supplies for the Rolands who don't carry much ammo. So what they could do is insert the FSVs into convoys and let the Rolands run free to hunt for pirates. Then the Rolands will have that mobile supply platform they need.

ywing14 wrote:Oh I agree, I am making lots of assumptions. Who's to say the GA wouldn't offer terms the other 4 prior to destroying their infrastructure. However, when it came to who had the ability to intervene in a meaningful way I believe other than the SLN there really wasn't an apparatus that could within the SL structure. Too many of the people in the government had their fates tied to the Mandarins. SLN was probably the only group that could do it with minimum blood shed. The Ghost Hunters' didn't even feel they could go to the Attorney General and went to the Deputy.

I'm saying that there very well might have been other sensible people on Sol. Kingsford had the advantage of knowing the GA was at least in the ballpark about the MAlgin but that isn't the only reason to stage a coup and accept Harrington's terms.

pappilon wrote:Terms of the Epsilon Eridani Edict are something like: Once the enemy has warships in possession of the planetary orbital, She demands the immediate surrender of the planet by the government. Ther invaded government must immediately surrender or face the prospect of planetary bombardment.

I can't see how anyone could assume the Mandarins had any choice but surrender. Yes, I could see some arrogant Solly Fleet Admiral with a good force of SDs and a collier of trebuchets not standing down in some backwater planet, somewhere, but no way anyone on Earth is not going to force the Mandarins to surrender.

1) Harrington said she wouldn't bombard.

2) She doesn't possess any orbitals--she's outside the hyper limit. Eridani hasn't been updated to GA combat range.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

ywing14 wrote:Oh I agree, I am making lots of assumptions. Who's to say the GA wouldn't offer terms the other 4 prior to destroying their infrastructure. However, when it came to who had the ability to intervene in a meaningful way I believe other than the SLN there really wasn't an apparatus that could within the SL structure. Too many of the people in the government had their fates tied to the Mandarins. SLN was probably the only group that could do it with minimum blood shed. The Ghost Hunters' didn't even feel they could go to the Attorney General and went to the Deputy.

I'm saying that there very well might have been other sensible people on Sol. Kingsford had the advantage of knowing the GA was at least in the ballpark about the MAlgin but that isn't the only reason to stage a coup and accept Harrington's terms.

Valid point

Pirates vs "mercenary fleets'" vs agressive systems bent on seizing an empire at the expence of their neighbors....massive differences.

Normal pirates....you know, the ones with what are esstntialy armed merchant ships, don't require massive military vessel units responses or patrol except in cases where the looses start to mount up and you wonder what is going on. Anything in the present SLN inventory and probably any single ship from a system's SDF can take a garden variety pirate, all they have to do is find them and have the ability to be sucessfull in either killing the ship or getting them to surrender.

Mercenary fleets is a lot more iffy. The level of piracy with squadrons (mixed) of actual warships such as Saganami encountered is, very broadly speaking, either a major criminal enterprise (such as Manticore is dealing with the Manticore Asendent Series) or Black Operations by Star Nations, or things like the Peoples Republic OF Haven Navy in Exile. All of this is very bad news and would need (usually) very powerful responces of preferably superior forces (size, weapons, experience etc). That incluses the Peep's raiding in Silesia which ended up with Honor in command of a squadron of Q-ships.

Gregor Anderman is a variation on the true mercenary fleet as ships for hire. Still, if you have to deal with Gregor before he became Emperor, he was a mercenary captain and he sold his services and if you were to have any hope of beating him- or better, make yourself into a target he did not wish to fight- you need serious combat power and ability yourself.

The Dictator/President-for Life/ etc who thinks his one system just isn't enough and he needs to become Emperor of several, well, they need to be dissuaded from doing that or stamped to a grease spot as various things may apply. Again, you need offsetting combat ability and be real convincing that you are not a fight they want to try.

For other than the Mercenary Fleet, one or a few SLN present or soon to evolve warships can fill the bill quite nicely. Destroyers, Crusiers, BCs.....patroling, often agressive patrolling, coupled with good intelligence and, in the case of keeping off expansive dictators, strong and active defense for the system to make it too expensive a attempt to take.

Want to bet that Kingsford is going to end up wanting to react VERY POORLY to any SLN ship or officer who doesn't comply with the terms of the surrender at Sol. That would be in line with what the reconsituted Republic of Haven had to do with the units and officres and govenors of the former Peoples Republic of Haven who did not surrender to the Republic.....hunt them down and kill them. What choice does Kingsford have.....or actualy the Chamber...because any SLN unit that goes rogue/mercenary/pirate is going to creat some very big problems for the League--and any supporting League Member systme.

Places like Maya -and we may see some, particularly of the type were the OFS Gov. and close naval accomplices declare Independence but remain cess pools of problems-- are probably going to get a pass from the GA but ONLY IF they end up opeating as we- the readers- expect Berogos to continue to operate and make a region that truly does operate as a responsible Star Nation and not one of the Dictatorships or like Monica.

Yes it was a surrender of the SLN coupled with the arrest of (at least) the senior un-elected burocrates that had been running that bureaucracy by the Justice Department of the League based on evidence presented. What the Elected Sr. Government of the League- and that would include the members of the Chamber of Stars are going to go through as far as retaining their current positions is a different discussion but from a practical standpoint, the League is going to change and the actual control of the government of the League is presently under terms of Martial Law till the Chamber does what they have been told they must do....by Honor Harrington, the commander of the fleet who controles ALL of the REMAINING ORBITALS in the entire system. She does control ALL of the orbital space in the Sol system, from the Ort Cloud right down to the edge of atmosphear of planet EARTH and all the way into the Sun. She just destroyed or caused to be destroyed EVERY military vessel and the vast majority of the orbital infrastructuer in the system incuding all the fabrication capacity. That would truly seem to comply with the "Laws of War"

CHECKMATE, Board empty on the League side in the Sol System. Violate the terms and she will start with the next largest system in the League and do the same thing- system by system until Someone agrees to comply with the terms.....and she really doens't care how long or how much destruction that will take to get compliance.

She CAN destroy any given .....and she has demonstrated that, yes, the GA can do exactly what she just said they would do should the SLN violate the dictates of the the surrender demand etc.

Sigs wrote:You are saying that the RMN doesn't need SD(P)'s but needs cruisers and destroyers for a mission you can't even nail down and numbers you cannot nail down. It could be 1 system requiring assistance with commerce protection and piracy or 1000 systems or anywhere in between.

I can predict that there will be a lot more commerce than combat, and a lot of systems looking to replace the protection of the SLN. That implies a need for a lot of ships suited to commerce protection.

The RMN will keep many SD(p)s, because they can be "upgraded" to better missiles simply by loading a different pod configuration. But the RMN can't afford -- monetarily -- to build enough SD(p)s to fulfill the predicted need for commerce protection, but they can build several escort and patrol vessels for the cost of one SD(p).

Since there is nothing in any known Navy that can stand up to the Mk-16G there is no need for anything bigger than a BC(L) in 99.9999% of predictable missions; a division of Rolands are almost as useful.

Much of the predictable need will be fulfilled by LACs and Mycroft/Moriarty with a leavening of hyper-capable ships of any size.

Insofar as the GA knows at the end of UH, the MAlign is more akin to Al Queda than the (former) USSR -- a different sort of threat than you would have them prepare for.

pappilon wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:It would depend on the size of the convoy whether it would be cost effective to provide LAC escorts with FSVs, CLACs, or freighter modules. For some convoys, a Roland division or older CL division might be what's needed; for others, a CLAC and a couple BCs and might be what's needed.

It all depends on what you're looking at for pirates. A CLAC is one defenseless POS with 120 +/- light units swarming around. Against some irate pirate with a former SLN CA, its way much overkill unless you plan on using the LAC wedges as an impenetrable shield against missiles.

The LACs have as much anti-missile capability as an SLN destroyer. Standard practice should include keeping a squadron close to boost missile defenses.

I don't see a CLAC escorting a convoy solo because of the need for protection in a grav wave -- the one place a LAC is of no use. A CLAC would probably travel with at least a division of DDs or CLs as a screen. One SLN CA would be no threat unless it could arrange a suicidal ambush -- which would not be all that profitable for the pirate.

pappilon wrote:Pirates operating with more than say a dozen BCs is going to be a force worth reckoning with that would require that much firepower.

A Dozen BCs is extremely unlikely for pirates, or even privateers backed by some warlord. That kind of task-force is the province of commerce raiders backed by a substantial Navy -- something the RF could manage (in the near term) if they were really stupid and wanted to shatter their "good guy" cover.

In the longer term, Manticore has dealt with large scale commerce raiding in the past, and the GA has enough ships on-hand to deal with any new threat of that nature.

As someone said up-thread, pirates need base facilities. Ships do not repair themselves, stolen goods do not sell themselves, captives do not ransom themselves. Piracy in the Caribbean did not support itself: it used New York as a base. Once the Royal Navy clamped down on New York, piracy in the Caribbean declined and almost vanished.

Pirates in the Honorverse need bases just as much as any pirates ever have. Silesia had a big piracy problem because of extensive governmental corruption. Other areas probably use Manpower bases as their "home ports."

Getting rid of pirates is a game of "whack a mole" unless you eliminate the bases. The anticipated rollup of Manpower's network of bases will do a lot to reduce the problem. I can see the GA developing a policy on how to handle planets that give support to pirates.

ywing14 wrote:I just don't know that the Mandarins or others would act that rational. Look at all the irrational decisions and things the Mandarins did prior to the GA taking the Earth Orbitals.

The Mandarins won't. Compliance is a death sentence for them for the Eridani violation. The objective is what happened--a coup.

pappilon wrote:
It all depends on what you're looking at for pirates. A CLAC is one defenseless POS with 120 +/- light units swarming around. Against some irate pirate with a former SLN CA, its way much overkill unless you plan on using the LAC wedges as an impenetrable shield against missiles.

Pirates operating with more than say a dozen BCs is going to be a force worth reckoning with that would require that much firepower. And even that can be handled with a squadron of 8 Rolands and an FSV. Much less tonnage, far fewer personnel, more efficient convoy protection.

RMN CLACS are far from defenseless, the original Minotaur design had 18 Mk 43 MDM in it's hammer heads and 3everal Spinal SD quality Grasers, along with a defensive suite better than a Gryphon SD's

The Hydra Design (Minotaur Flight II) dropped the Grasers, took the Mk 41 tubes and swapped them for 24 Mk 23 tubes, while shortening the magazines and uping the defenses.

Grayson and Havenite CLAC designs are defenses only.

My point being, if any SLN turned priate with a CA decides to jump a lonely RMN CLAC, an offensive suite that can trade blows with a late gen SD will turn it into a gaseous cloud quickly.