SPOILER end of the MA

Weird Harold wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Also, LAC's are only suited for policing local space - not interstellar space lane unless you are prepared to throw in CLAC's too. which are a tad more expensive than lighter units and not at all suited to anti piracy work.

Actually, I think LACs and CLACs are admirably suited to anti-piracy work. Even FSVs with LAC support modules, would work well as convoy escorts.

A convoy escort would need something with energy weapons for protection inside a grav wave, but Shrike or Katana style LACs can operate effectively in hyper-space once a CLAC or FSV (or freighter with a LC support module) lifts them over the hyper-wall. A LAC shell around a convoy in N-space would be far more effective than one or two conventional convoy escorts -- more eyes in more places.

The LAC squadrons from a full-on CLAC, would be the best way to cover a large volume when searching a system for pirate activity.

It would depend on the size of the convoy whether it would be cost effective to provide LAC escorts with FSVs, CLACs, or freighter modules. For some convoys, a Roland division or older CL division might be what's needed; for others, a CLAC and a couple BCs and might be what's needed.

It all depends on what you're looking at for pirates. A CLAC is one defenseless POS with 120 +/- light units swarming around. Against some irate pirate with a former SLN CA, its way much overkill unless you plan on using the LAC wedges as an impenetrable shield against missiles.

Pirates operating with more than say a dozen BCs is going to be a force worth reckoning with that would require that much firepower. And even that can be handled with a squadron of 8 Rolands and an FSV. Much less tonnage, far fewer personnel, more efficient convoy protection.

The FSV would probably look like a Merchant Vessel to most pirates so it would be easy to slip one in to a convoy or two. Have it configured as a LAC tender and with a few pods. You've got a pretty decent way to defend the convoy.

ywing14 wrote: I just don't know that the Mandarins or others would act that rational. Look at all the irrational decisions and things the Mandarins did prior to the GA taking the Earth Orbitals.

Well I guess its up to the military or somebody to either act rationally or sit back as KEWs blow all military buildings in Old Chicago into mausoleums then act rationally.

At some point acting rationally is a matter of not begging to be killed. I doubt anyone is just that stupid/arrogant/irrational. Playing Elvis Santino and sending your ships on a suicide mission because you're an idiot and playing General Francisca Yucel and daring the GA to drop KEWs on your position is just exactly what the Mandarins would be doing under your scenario.

Of course, after the first KEW hit, I'm pretty sure rationality would break out. We can just agree to disagree.

Joat42 wrote:

So you are fine with building an undetermined amount of SD(P)'s but not light ships for anti-piracy patrols?

I am going to assume that you have not done more then scan some of my posts because many of them have very specific numbers associated with what I think the RMN should have. I am stating EXACTLY how many SD(P)'s I think the RMN should have and WHY I think they should have them. The RMN should build up to a total strength of 350 SD(P)'s in service which is quite a specific and very narrow number compared to "build lots of lighter ships"...

It's a given that now the OFS, the SLN and some transtellars have been evicted from the Verge and the outer protectorates, piracy is going to rise.

And as a democracy, Manticore, Haven and Grayson would have quite a hard time in the long term to explain why their combined fleets are acting as the galactic policeman and throwing blood and treasure into systems that may be involved in civil war for the next 20 or 30 years and why the navies in question are exposing their home systems by cutting combat power in return for anti-piracy in systems where the GA might not have interests.

The GA needs new markets but also to stimulate the economic growth in the protectorates and the Verge, that translates directly to an increased presence of merchants that will need protection.

I agree but I also would say that most of those systems would be better served with a handful of LAC's manned by a combination of GA and Local personnel rather than thousands of DD--->BC warships. And most of all you need to convince the voters why you are committing thousands of warships to anti-piracy missions to help systems that MIGHT become trading partners some time in the future once they settle all of their personal scores internally.

The shell will have very little problems in the way of piracy since it's almost counted to belonging to the old league by now so I don't know why you would use that area as an basis for you argument.

The shell IS part of the League but it has been mentioned by the mandarins that many in shell systems would like to go it alone. The shell systems would in short order be able to build quite powerful local fleets when compared to the threat they face(pirates).

Also, LAC's are only suited for policing local space - not interstellar space lane unless you are prepared to throw in CLAC's too. which are a tad more expensive than lighter units and not at all suited to anti piracy work.

And I believe that LAC's should be utilized wherever they can be utilized. Having 20 or 30 Cimeterre-class LACs in a system backed up by a dozen Shriked would be more then enough to protect the local system from pirates and with Cimeterre's they can eventually be handed over to the host system as the core of their own SDF which would allow them to expand to DD's and CLs if they chose.

Trying to replicate the Grayson success is not really feasible, we are talking about several hundred systems in the shell.

The Shell systems are mostly industrialized and stable systems. They are like the Core systems but less industry and population by and large therefore not where I was thinking about developing.

I don't see how your suggestion could work economically since you are also adamant on building a shitload of SD(P)'s.

No I am adamant on manning the SD(P)'s the GA has under construction as of the end of UH. There are roughly 850 SD(P)s in service and another ~400 SD(P)s under construction, taking those 400 SD(P)'s and splitting them amongst Manticore, Beowulf and other core systems that join the GA like Hypatia takes care of them. I am NOT suggesting Manticore man all 400 SD(P)s nor am I suggesting the GA build all that many more SD(P)'s until they get the technology back to Manticore's level or at least close enough to it, I am suggesting finishing they construction, have a realistic fleet for their size and throwing the rest in reserve.

And there is no way to give specifics since we have almost no textev with specifics how many systems there are in the Verge and protectorates, how much trade is going to pick up, which systems are going to sign up the GA etc etc.

Well then you give the criteria on how you decide where they go, how many ships the GA can realistically deploy for anti-piracy and commerce protection and how you convince the tax payers to fund that adventure.

Theemile wrote:Does the GA really need more SD(p)s? In the Fleet Role, what is an SD(p) for? Answer - attack of opposition systems and strategic reinforcement of friendly systems. Here we are discussing Strategic Defense - which is primarily the job of Forts.

Strategic defence requires the ability to reinforce the defences of a system and forts are too hard and time intensive to be redeployed quickly and and with any frequency, you can't really deploy 50 forts into 5 systems from the strategic reserve, keep them in system for a few months and then recall them because the threat environment has changed you can on the other hand do that for SD(P)'s and CLAC's.

In peace time you build infrastructure, and Forts are infrastructure.

And if the GA was at peace I would agree with you but they are not therefore I cannot.

While I don't see many SD(p)s being built (though I do see some, don't get me wrong) I see a great expenditure in fortresses and their associated defenses (Moriarty firecontrol, pod shoals, LAC squadrons).

Sending a recon drone in a ballistic flight path close to some of your defences would likely allow your enemies to find their weaknesses without requiring the MA's secret drive technology like they did in Beowulf and neutralize them completely or in part thereby making all of your fixed defences irrelevant which would make having a bunch of SD(P)'s available for reinforcing the defence pretty good idea.

Planets who will not pay for fleets for warships will pay for local forts - they provide local jobs and are a local sign of government support and protection. Besides, every fort is the equal of many SD(p)s (The dozen at Lynx were said to be the equal of 200 Manty SD(p)s), so every one built frees up a squadron or two SD(p)s for nodal defense and offensive fleets.

True, ton for ton forts are more powerful, but having the firepower of 200 SD(P)'s in forts does you you absolutely no good if you cannot use those forts to reinforce threatened system. With fixed defences like forts you cannot deploy them quickly which means that you have x number of isolated systems which I can pick off individually and cannot expect assistance from their neighbours they are all alone.

pappilon wrote:

ywing14 wrote: I just don't know that the Mandarins or others would act that rational. Look at all the irrational decisions and things the Mandarins did prior to the GA taking the Earth Orbitals.

Well I guess its up to the military or somebody to either act rationally or sit back as KEWs blow all military buildings in Old Chicago into mausoleums then act rationally.

At some point acting rationally is a matter of not begging to be killed. I doubt anyone is just that stupid/arrogant/irrational. Playing Elvis Santino and sending your ships on a suicide mission because you're an idiot and playing General Francisca Yucel and daring the GA to drop KEWs on your position is just exactly what the Mandarins would be doing under your scenario.

Of course, after the first KEW hit, I'm pretty sure rationality would break out. We can just agree to disagree.

Oh I am sure it would break out after the KEW hit. But that's not what honor planned to do. Honestly and KEWs against one of the system governments of the Core in my opinion would have led to an all out war with the GA at some point. Maybe not for several decades or maybe a century given but I doubt that would be something the Sollies would forgive.

Weird Harold wrote:
My argument is that the Honorverse diplomats will determine what, where, when, how, and why the GA -- or someone else, like the RF or MARS -- will provide defense or commerce protection. There is not enough textev information to say more than that the SKM and GA have expressed an intent to make trade and mutual defense treaties to ensure peace. There are only very rough estimates of numbers of systems and what their status is now or might be in the future.

So would you say that it is a little irrational to shoot down an idea with a broad suggestion like anti-piracy and commerce protection if you don't even know if they will be widely needed?

You are saying that the RMN doesn't need SD(P)'s but needs cruisers and destroyers for a mission you can't even nail down and numbers you cannot nail down. It could be 1 system requiring assistance with commerce protection and piracy or 1000 systems or anywhere in between.

pappilon wrote:
It all depends on what you're looking at for pirates. A CLAC is one defenseless POS with 120 +/- light units swarming around. Against some irate pirate with a former SLN CA, its way much overkill unless you plan on using the LAC wedges as an impenetrable shield against missiles.

Pirates operating with more than say a dozen BCs is going to be a force worth reckoning with that would require that much firepower. And even that can be handled with a squadron of 8 Rolands and an FSV. Much less tonnage, far fewer personnel, more efficient convoy protection.

And how many pirates will operate a dozen BCs? If they show up in a verge or former protectorate system with a dozen BC's they are not pirates, they are trying to conquer the system.

ywing14 wrote:The FSV would probably look like a Merchant Vessel to most pirates so it would be easy to slip one in to a convoy or two. Have it configured as a LAC tender and with a few pods. You've got a pretty decent way to defend the convoy.

Or have 3 Roland's to defend the convoy at at 19% of the tonnage and a third of the crew.

Sigs wrote:

Joat42 wrote:

So you are fine with building an undetermined amount of SD(P)'s but not light ships for anti-piracy patrols?

I am going to assume that you have not done more then scan some of my posts because many of them have very specific numbers associated with what I think the RMN should have. I am stating EXACTLY how many SD(P)'s I think the RMN should have and WHY I think they should have them. The RMN should build up to a total strength of 350 SD(P)'s in service which is quite a specific and very narrow number compared to "build lots of lighter ships"...

It's a given that now the OFS, the SLN and some transtellars have been evicted from the Verge and the outer protectorates, piracy is going to rise.

And as a democracy, Manticore, Haven and Grayson would have quite a hard time in the long term to explain why their combined fleets are acting as the galactic policeman and throwing blood and treasure into systems that may be involved in civil war for the next 20 or 30 years and why the navies in question are exposing their home systems by cutting combat power in return for anti-piracy in systems where the GA might not have interests.

The GA needs new markets but also to stimulate the economic growth in the protectorates and the Verge, that translates directly to an increased presence of merchants that will need protection.

I agree but I also would say that most of those systems would be better served with a handful of LAC's manned by a combination of GA and Local personnel rather than thousands of DD--->BC warships. And most of all you need to convince the voters why you are committing thousands of warships to anti-piracy missions to help systems that MIGHT become trading partners some time in the future once they settle all of their personal scores internally.

The shell will have very little problems in the way of piracy since it's almost counted to belonging to the old league by now so I don't know why you would use that area as an basis for you argument.

The shell IS part of the League but it has been mentioned by the mandarins that many in shell systems would like to go it alone. The shell systems would in short order be able to build quite powerful local fleets when compared to the threat they face(pirates).

Also, LAC's are only suited for policing local space - not interstellar space lane unless you are prepared to throw in CLAC's too. which are a tad more expensive than lighter units and not at all suited to anti piracy work.

And I believe that LAC's should be utilized wherever they can be utilized. Having 20 or 30 Cimeterre-class LACs in a system backed up by a dozen Shriked would be more then enough to protect the local system from pirates and with Cimeterre's they can eventually be handed over to the host system as the core of their own SDF which would allow them to expand to DD's and CLs if they chose.

Trying to replicate the Grayson success is not really feasible, we are talking about several hundred systems in the shell.

The Shell systems are mostly industrialized and stable systems. They are like the Core systems but less industry and population by and large therefore not where I was thinking about developing.

I don't see how your suggestion could work economically since you are also adamant on building a shitload of SD(P)'s.

No I am adamant on manning the SD(P)'s the GA has under construction as of the end of UH. There are roughly 850 SD(P)s in service and another ~400 SD(P)s under construction, taking those 400 SD(P)'s and splitting them amongst Manticore, Beowulf and other core systems that join the GA like Hypatia takes care of them. I am NOT suggesting Manticore man all 400 SD(P)s nor am I suggesting the GA build all that many more SD(P)'s until they get the technology back to Manticore's level or at least close enough to it, I am suggesting finishing they construction, have a realistic fleet for their size and throwing the rest in reserve.

And there is no way to give specifics since we have almost no textev with specifics how many systems there are in the Verge and protectorates, how much trade is going to pick up, which systems are going to sign up the GA etc etc.

Well then you give the criteria on how you decide where they go, how many ships the GA can realistically deploy for anti-piracy and commerce protection and how you convince the tax payers to fund that adventure.

First off, neither Grayson nor Manticore are Democracies. Second we really don't know what's going to happen in the Shell. It's stated in the books a few times that lots of worlds in Shell have scores to settle with each other. We don't know who's going to go Conqueror or not.

LACs are useful as you said but I don't foresee them being deployed in that many systems. The GA does not want to become the SL. And that's what'll happen if they try to do what Frontier Security did.

Justifying the building of smaller vessels for commerce protection will be quite possibly the easiest thing in the world for the SEM to do. The SK did commerce protection for centuries in Silesia. As they say at the end of the last book RMN cut it's teeth doing commerce protection. Manticore had the largest Merchant Fleet in space and still does. Manticorans understand how important that still is to them. They'll understand why they need to protect them. And ironically enough while commerce protection does cost money, it doesn't cost as much as say...fighting a war with the largest political entity in known space. The citizens probably won't even be taxed. They'll just use junction fees.

Manticore will just use the same strategy they use in Silesia just writ larger. Convoys where possible and then single ships/divisons roaming the space lanes and making port of call visits to various planets.