SPOILER end of the MA

George J. Smith wrote:With the timing of the Beowulf orbitals destruction being all to pot, it should be obvious to all & sundry that the SLN did not carry out that destruction. How many of the RF planets that did not declare their association with the RF held back because they suddenly realised just how ruthless the MA really is? ISTR there was mention of at least 2 systems whose "loyalty" to the RF was questionable at the meeting with Albrecht.

Of course, only rfc knows the answer, but wouldn't it be nice if some, or even just one, of those planets decided to jump ship and spill the beans on the RF.

George, I thought the loyalty part was questionable because those other systems were directly controlled by the MAlign like the folks who were at the meetings and also Alpha Lines. Could be wrong on that though.

pappilon wrote:

ywing14 wrote:Honestly, I would call what happened a mistake but I don't agree that it had to do with what happened to at Beowulf. They got what they wanted which was the GA to begin offensive operations against the SL. The GA destroyed most of Earth's space driven resources and seized it's naval bases and navy.

They made a ... strategic miscalculation vis-a-vis Beowulf. What they wanted, expected and got, were GA advances against the SL. Where they miscalculated was a play right out of the SLN playbook: to go to the capital planet and take contrl of the planet's orbital and demand unconditional surrender. They miscalculated the boldness of Honor's Strategy.

ywing14 wrote:The Detweilers mistake was that it never saw the Ghost Hunters/Gaddis coming.

Definite counterintelligence failure there, for sure.

ywing14 wrote:Additionally, I would say they miscalculated their ability to direct Kingsford's decisions. Without Gaddis and Kingsford, it is very likely the war would have gone on. We know this from the discussion the Mandrins were having when they got arrested by Gaddis. If they hadn't stopped there at earth it is likely the GA would have gone around smashing Core World economies and building up resentment within the SL that would make a true peace difficult/impossible. This was essentially what the MAlign wanted.

How could the war go on? Earth is not just one of 600 league worlds. It is the capital of the league. All the SLN's over-rated battle fleet could do was make a Custer's Last Stand, or a charge of the Light Brigade.

With the capture of the SL government including the military command, Surrender orders would be sent out to all fleet bases informing them of the terms of surrender. Yes. I suppose admirals could disobey orders and fight on, but futility is, after all, futility. I doubt any SDF would take on the GA fores.

ywing14 wrote:The real heroes in this book were the Ghost Hunters/Gaddis but most especially Kingsford. Who made an extremely difficult decision especially given the fact the GA could argue he's responsible for some of the atrocities that occurred.

I totally agree.

The war could have easily gone on if the government didn't surrender. All it would have taken would be for the Mandarins to refuse to do anything. Honor stated she would start destroying other planets economies if they didn't surrender. Which is specifically what would have happened had it not been for Gaddis and Kingsford. I'm not arguing that the SLN wasn't militarily defeated. But if the SL refused to surrender what do you believe the GA would have done? How would surrender orders be sent out if they refused to surrender? Kingsford surrendered SLN in the Sol System. However he did not surrender the entire SLN. There is no way he would have told the rest of the SLN to surrender. After he agreed to Honor's terms is a whole different story.

ywing14 wrote:The war could have easily gone on if the government didn't surrender. All it would have taken would be for the Mandarins to refuse to do anything. Honor stated she would start destroying other planets economies if they didn't surrender. Which is specifically what would have happened had it not been for Gaddis and Kingsford. I'm not arguing that the SLN wasn't militarily defeated. But if the SL refused to surrender what do you believe the GA would have done? How would surrender orders be sent out if they refused to surrender? Kingsford surrendered SLN in the Sol System. However he did not surrender the entire SLN. There is no way he would have told the rest of the SLN to surrender. After he agreed to Honor's terms is a whole different story.

You're assuming there's nobody else that would have realized the folly of continuing and intervened.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

ywing14 wrote:The war could have easily gone on if the government didn't surrender. All it would have taken would be for the Mandarins to refuse to do anything. Honor stated she would start destroying other planets economies if they didn't surrender. Which is specifically what would have happened had it not been for Gaddis and Kingsford. I'm not arguing that the SLN wasn't militarily defeated. But if the SL refused to surrender what do you believe the GA would have done? How would surrender orders be sent out if they refused to surrender? Kingsford surrendered SLN in the Sol System. However he did not surrender the entire SLN. There is no way he would have told the rest of the SLN to surrender. After he agreed to Honor's terms is a whole different story.

You're assuming there's nobody else that would have realized the folly of continuing and intervened.

Oh I agree, I am making lots of assumptions. Who's to say the GA wouldn't offer terms the other 4 prior to destroying their infrastructure. However, when it came to who had the ability to intervene in a meaningful way I believe other than the SLN there really wasn't an apparatus that could within the SL structure. Too many of the people in the government had their fates tied to the Mandarins. SLN was probably the only group that could do it with minimum blood shed. The Ghost Hunters' didn't even feel they could go to the Attorney General and went to the Deputy.

I had to wait till I finished UH and waded through the entire thread. Sigh

Piracy and single/multi-system turmoil post the SL surrender is probably, (and in general) going to be addressed with SL/SLN level tech though with hopefully lessons learned by the SLN and League members (and others) because the vast majority of it is going to be fought with SLN level tech.

The GA was very explicet in it will treat as pirate ANY SLN ship that goes out of SLN territory. for the forseable future anyway). Pirates - who don't want to tackle warships- still can be killed with SLN level tech. Individual systems ---be they league or non-league--can aquire SLN tech ships and deal with local piracy issues.

The can also creat variations on the RF and have local/regional SDFs - with SLN current tech to deal with piracy AND to deal with neighbors who have evil intentions for territorial gain.

The RF was NOT intended to conquer a bunch of systems and force the Alighment on them. It is more of a honey trap (by offereing the protection withour oppression) BUT to also feed in the basic Alignment ideals and morals (such as those morals are) into systems that join the RF and spread the Alignment doctrine. You have already seen it, Destroy the Beowulf Code, Improve Humanity. Freedome of choice (to have the Alignment make the choices and you get to choose the "best" of a small menue that all lead to the same thing)

A reorganized, FUNTIONAL League, even a lot smaller is one of the last things the Alignment wants. The Alignment wants to be the puppet master controlling everyting and molding what people believe and want to aspire too. The Long Range Planning Board is supposed to ultimately control what EVERYBODY's children will be. They will certainly be crafting (and exparimeneting with) the children of the leadership and all the Star Lines. The rest .....well, the rest are not much more than usefull cattle and to be tailored to the work and intesets and experiments that go on.

The RF was suppose to be the Shining Light of defence for a largish group of former League Members and Indpenedents. Then they infect/incert the Alignment philosophy into the systems educational. medical and government systems etc and make they plient tools to spread the philosophy.

The Alignment isn't faced with stagnation and being cut off from innovation and improvements in the League or independents- current or future. Given their penetraion of the League, Technodyne and the conduit of the RF, they can buy or steal dam near any patant or new tech that comes up and just add it to what they have at Darius. Patants? Intiletual Propery Law and Royalties....who are you kidding, the Alignment may pay credits but then they just "borrow" the info and ideas from the "litigitamet" licensees and treat it as their own. Kind of like China?. Because who is 1) going to know, 2) could do anything if they did find out and 3) the Alignment is the Rightfull Leadership of Humanity and all knowlege and improvements should come to them if not created by them.

Yeah, the GA and now also a lot of the League and the SLN really really want the Alignment.

It's going to be a long war.

ywing14 wrote:The war could have easily gone on if the government didn't surrender. All it would have taken would be for the Mandarins to refuse to do anything. Honor stated she would start destroying other planets economies if they didn't surrender. Which is specifically what would have happened had it not been for Gaddis and Kingsford. I'm not arguing that the SLN wasn't militarily defeated. But if the SL refused to surrender what do you believe the GA would have done? How would surrender orders be sent out if they refused to surrender? Kingsford surrendered SLN in the Sol System. However he did not surrender the entire SLN. There is no way he would have told the rest of the SLN to surrender. After he agreed to Honor's terms is a whole different story.

Loren Pechtel wrote:You're assuming there's nobody else that would have realized the folly of continuing and intervened.

ywing14 wrote:Oh I agree, I am making lots of assumptions. Who's to say the GA wouldn't offer terms the other 4 prior to destroying their infrastructure. However, when it came to who had the ability to intervene in a meaningful way I believe other than the SLN there really wasn't an apparatus that could within the SL structure. Too many of the people in the government had their fates tied to the Mandarins. SLN was probably the only group that could do it with minimum blood shed. The Ghost Hunters' didn't even feel they could go to the Attorney General and went to the Deputy.

Terms of the Epsilon Eridani Edict are something like: Once the enemy has warships in possession of the planetary orbital, She demands the immediate surrender of the planet by the government. Ther invaded government must immediately surrender or face the prospect of planetary bombardment.

I can't see how anyone could assume the Mandarins had any choice but surrender. Yes, I could see some arrogant Solly Fleet Admiral with a good force of SDs and a collier of trebuchets not standing down in some backwater planet, somewhere, but no way anyone on Earth is not going to force the Mandarins to surrender.

ywing14 wrote:So if we went with you 400 number that would still be less than the combined GA fleet. Which doesn't include the Andy's would I'm sure would be thrilled to contribute ships to the destruction of the MAlign.

No one from the GA knows where the MA is located but the MA knows where almost every GA system is located with the exception of Bolthole. The GA might have a numerical superiority but the MA can pick and choose which systems to go after with little fear of repercussions.

You're right, but so far nothing the MAlign has done as indicated they plan on a direct military campaign.

And when/if they do so it would be too late. My point is that just because they haven't done any purely military operations yet does not mean that they won't do purely military operations in the future. By the time you realize they are going with the military option you are 24-36 months from getting new SD(P)'s and likely longer for any serious numbers to come out.

All of their military actions have essentially been convert in nature with the intent of stoking the fire between the GA and the SL.

And since this didn't work what is the GA to assume? The MA will dig in and hide for another 600 years until there is another large corrupt nations to try this one more time? Or do they realize that their plan was too complicated and had too many factors outside of their control so they try a more direct approach.

I don't understand your obsession with the 46 million who were killed at Beowulf for the justification for building more ships.

Because the MA has shown that they have no concern about inflicting massive casualties on civilians so you can't assume they will show restraint in the future. Are you suggesting that when the MAN sails into a system and kills tens of millions of people that would be the time to militarize?

The attack there wasn't caused by a MAlign fleet action.

Ok Got it, wait until they slaughter your civilians in fleet action before you start building a fleet...

It was caused by bombs.

And the next one might be caused by warships, the time after that by biological weapons, the time after that by crashing a cargo ship into a planet the next time might be blowing up nukes on a planet the time after that could be any number of other ways. Are you not willing to look at what could happen next and prepare or are you the type of person who deals with something only once it happens never in advance?

Additionally, how would it be the opening chapter in a long war? The war started in the Talbot sector a while ago. What happened in Beowulf was merely a continuation of that war. One in which despite a GA fleet, Mycroft, and tons of recon drones was still successful.

Yep and the war has lasted about 2 years. The war with Haven lasted 10 years, the second 3 years and that is when the two sides new where their enemies systems were with the exception of Bolthole. It has been 2 years the GA still doesn't know if the MA has 1 system or 100 systems, or if the MA has a guy in a spacesuit armed with a .22 for a navy or 1000 SD(P)'s of their own. Unless they get really really lucky and find Darius at which point it would be a long occupation.

But your own argument about what we know and what the GA knows works against you here. The GA knows to this point they have not been attacked conventionally by the MAlign. There is no indication they will be attacked conventionally with the intent to occupy any GA worlds.

So once again do they only build up their military only AFTER the MA has shown up and slaughtered their citizens? And the first indication of a conventional attack would be a conventional attack... which would be slightly late to start preparing for.

A) their faster and in the case of LACs you might be able to swarm a Lenny Det and possibly get close enough to get some useful data.

MIGHT or you might get your LAC's slaughtered for no return.

B) You need to protect your merchant marine against pirates who will likely spring up with the dissolving of the Protectorates.

Sigs wrote:Since so many people keep bringing the anti-piracy and commerce protection as the main mission the GA has to be worried about let me ask you this:

How many systems would benefit from that anti-piracy?
How many systems would benefit from commerce protection?
How many lighter combatants (BC(P) and below) would you need?
How would you keep them supplied?
How do you decide which system benefits from anti-piracy patrols and which systems do not?
How do you decide which of the potentially 600 to 1000 systems are important enough for GA patrols?
How do you sell it to the GA public when all those manpower intensive ships require a large fleet train and logistical support closer to their patrol bases and all of it costs a lot of money for little return on investment?
How do you maintain 2,000 or 3,000 BC(P) and below in hundreds of systems and patrol routes and have them in sufficient strength that the GA doesn't end up losing a few of them with all of their nice technology to the MA?
How do you react when the MA sends out a coupe of dozen Leonard Detweiler class and Shark Class ships to intercept and destroy quite a few of the patrols? Do you give up and go home? Do you double down? Do you send heavier ships you don't have to support those endangered missions?


Its one thing to say we need anti-piracy patrols and we need lighter ships to do it when the actual mission is vague and the size and scope of the mission is vague as well. But one of the most important questions is how do you prevent the GA from turning into the League and Frontier Security?

Finally C) You'll need them to scout systems to try and find Darius.

And what do you do when you find Darius? Expose your systems in order to concolidate your ships into a fleet capable of attacking Darius or wait 5 years to build the fleet?

Weird Harold wrote:
Probably because they are NOT going to provide "for the galaxy," they are going to provide for those they have treaties or significant trade with. As they have done for centuries, they are going to provide commerce protect for THEIR merchant marine.

Then maybe you should expand on that. It seems that it is a vague notion that people can hide behind without providing any specifics. Is there threshold on how much trade a system does to be considered for anti-piracy and commerce protection? If a system receives one freighter a year or one freighter every two years from the GA does that require the deployment of a cruiser or destroyer? Are you going to provide anti-piracy for 10 systems, 50 systems, 200 systems or 1,500 systems?

You don't need that many light warships if you are only doing anti-piracy and commerce protection for 50 or 60 systems outside of the League as the SLN is more then capable of maintaining their territory piracy free unless the Pirates manage the get GA ships at which point someone has a lot of explaining to do.

FWIW, the MAlign has always engaged in commerce raiding against the SKM; Edward Saganami was killed protecting a convoy from a flotilla of pirates sponsored/financed by "Manpower." The RMN has responded to such threats with Cruisers -- preferably Battle Cruisers. As of the end of UH, there was no ship in any known Navy that could challenge an RMN Battle Cruiser and survive. There were damned few that could challenge a Roland and survive, one-on-one.

Is that going to be true 5 years down the road? What about 10?

In the whole "epilogue" I quoted from before, Empress Elizabeth also details why they are NOT going to be expanding their SD(p) fleet; upgrade and replace, yes, but not EXPAND. Beowulf is going to upgrade its SD force with "Bolthole Specials" and eventually, Grayson, Manticore, Haven, and the rest of the GA (Maya, Torch, Erewhon, Hypatia, etc) will upgrade to a Standardized SD(P) which will be a refinement of the Bolthole Specials currently in the building plans.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I mean its not like this entire thread wasn't intended as opposition for that "policy"

Those SD(P)s will be distributed in SDFs and Nodal Forces, but the "grunt work" is going to be done by Cruisers and Destroyers just as commerce protection has always been done.

How do you create nodal forces if Haven has to provide the majority of the forces for those Nodal forces? If the RHN shrinks from 580+SD(P)'s to 450 as I think they should who would provide those forces since the RMN will have no more then 140 SD(P)'s like less then 120? Would you expect the GSN to do that? Or are they going to shrink the size of their navy since they have only 1 system to protect? Why would the GSN maintain 150 SD(P)'s when the RMN decides to maintain 120-140 of their own while having at least 60 times the commitments of the GSN.

Whaatever the GSN demobilizes might be picked up by the RHN and/or the BDF but when the dusts settles and the numbers are at 75% of the GA's current fleet things get interesting. When you have to protect every GA member Nations's capital and every Capital systems population will demand protection, and you still have to commit forces to protect core systems that join the GA and can lend their industrial muscle in the rebuilding of the GA's industry you end up with very few nodal forces.

Counters for the MAlign tech they know of will be developed, and extrapolation of that known tech will lead to possible counters for even the Lenny Dets -- once the stealth aspect of the Spider Drive is pierced, the LDs become fat, slow, targets. Hasta and Silver Bullets are bigger threats than the LDs or Renaissance Factor's combined might, now and in the future.

What exactly do we know about the Lenny Dets? Do we know anything other than their method of movement? Are you making some generous and unfounded assumptions in order to validate you argument?

ldwechsler wrote:Exactly. At that point, the GA doesn't need all that many ships of the wall. They need more commerce protectors, etc.

Can you expand on the vague notion of commerce protection?

Sigs wrote:Since so many people keep bringing the anti-piracy and commerce protection as the main mission the GA has to be worried about let me ask you this:

How many systems would benefit from that anti-piracy?
How many systems would benefit from commerce protection?
How many lighter combatants (BC(P) and below) would you need?
How would you keep them supplied?
How do you decide which system benefits from anti-piracy patrols and which systems do not?
How do you decide which of the potentially 600 to 1000 systems are important enough for GA patrols?
How do you sell it to the GA public when all those manpower intensive ships require a large fleet train and logistical support closer to their patrol bases and all of it costs a lot of money for little return on investment?
How do you maintain 2,000 or 3,000 BC(P) and below in hundreds of systems and patrol routes and have them in sufficient strength that the GA doesn't end up losing a few of them with all of their nice technology to the MA?
How do you react when the MA sends out a coupe of dozen Leonard Detweiler class and Shark Class ships to intercept and destroy quite a few of the patrols? Do you give up and go home? Do you double down? Do you send heavier ships you don't have to support those endangered missions?


Its one thing to say we need anti-piracy patrols and we need lighter ships to do it when the actual mission is vague and the size and scope of the mission is vague as well. But one of the most important questions is how do you prevent the GA from turning into the League and Frontier Security?

More treecats will join intelligence services. That might hamper planets that provide protection for pirates. After all, if pirates are caught, they can be drained for real information.

And who in the MA's chain of command would give the pirates in question any worthwhile information?

So here's a nice comforting thought:

The MA tech guys said they were a year from reproducing the micro fusion reactor. Consider this on a graser torp, which already is designed to remain passive and awaiting an appropriate target for many months. Particularity as there doesn't seem to be any reason that you can't cold start fusion reactors if you have enough stored power, it's just not the way that the RMN does it.