SPOILER end of the MA

PeterZ wrote:After they solve the detection issue or other visible powers develop SDPs that can challenge their existing battle fleet.

Sigs wrote:So leave 400-800 SD(P)'s partially complete until then?

If they would take resources away from deploying lighter units, then yes. Perhaps it would be better to cannibalize them to build the lighter units. Leave the hulls to completed later when those ships can be effective against the MAN.

PeterZ wrote:

PeterZ wrote:After they solve the detection issue or other visible powers develop SDPs that can challenge their existing battle fleet.

Sigs wrote:So leave 400-800 SD(P)'s partially complete until then?

If they would take resources away from deploying lighter units, then yes. Perhaps it would be better to cannibalize them to build the lighter units. Leave the hulls to completed later when those ships can be effective against the MAN.

They won't leave them unfinished. But they won't be in a great hurry to finish them either - the pace of construction will sharply drop.

One good reason for that - those ships are rushed designs, rushed construction. Could be full of errors and minor deficencies which all need to be tweaked.

I'm thinking of a process similar to the RMN's Victory-Sphinx-Gryphon evolution, for Apollo podnoughts. HoS:

In many ways the Gryphon-class was simply an evolution and continuation of the successful Sphinx-class, as new construction began to incorporate lessons learned from the Victory-class testing and evaluation programs. The differences in weapons fit and evolutionary changes in design were great enough that BuShips re-designated them as an entirely new class, despite the fact that several of the later Sphinxes were all but indistinguishable from the final units of the earlier Gryphon-class ships.

There is only one comment I feel a need to add here beyond noting that a properly placed defensive system can equal the firepower of x number of SD(p)s, x depending on the size of the defensive system.

My comment had more to do with R&D. I did not intend to imply that R&D would never equalize. I merely intended to state the if Gram is continued at Bolthole in a pressurized way, the GA can slow the rate of closure and remain ahead of its competitors for a long time. An established and experienced R&D organization has a running start over one just getting its feet on the ground.

Don

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n7axw wrote:There is only one comment I feel a need to add here beyond noting that a properly placed defensive system can equal the firepower of x number of SD(p)s, x depending on the size of the defensive system.

My comment had more to do with R&D. I did not intend to imply that R&D would never equalize. I merely intended to state the if Gram is continued at Bolthole in a pressurized way, the GA can slow the rate of closure and remain ahead of its competitors for a long time. An established and experienced R&D organization has a running start over one just getting its feet on the ground.

Don

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Generally you are correct. And for the Solaran League 2.0 it certainly holds. For the MAlign, it is an arguable assumption. They are certainly behind in some areas as has already been noted, they are also ahead, albeit slightly, in others.

n7axw wrote: They won't leave them unfinished. But they won't be in a great hurry to finish them either - the pace of construction will sharply drop.

One good reason for that - those ships are rushed designs, rushed construction. Could be full of errors and minor deficencies which all need to be tweaked.

I'm thinking of a process similar to the RMN's Victory-Sphinx-Gryphon evolution, for Apollo podnoughts. HoS:

Yes, probably. I would also add that "good enough" is also the enemy of "new and improved". The primary issue is when along the continuum of R&D do you say good enough and start laying down the latest class? As long as R&D is turning out shiny new toys faster than they can be incorporated into the latest hull designs, one should wait to deploy a new class. Once development slows on major systems, is the time for the new design.

n7axw wrote:There is only one comment I feel a need to add here beyond noting that a properly placed defensive system can equal the firepower of x number of SD(p)s, x depending on the size of the defensive system.

My comment had more to do with R&D. I did not intend to imply that R&D would never equalize. I merely intended to state the if Gram is continued at Bolthole in a pressurized way, the GA can slow the rate of closure and remain ahead of its competitors for a long time. An established and experienced R&D organization has a running start over one just getting its feet on the ground.

Don

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Good point, also remember, the GA grabbed EVERYTHING at the #1 supreme R&D tech center. The files, the databanks, the experiments, the protypes - EVERYTHING.

So everything the SLN and it's major suppliers has planned to do, has done, or is working on in the current pipeline is already in the GA's hands.

within 6 months, we should see modified Mk41s and Mk 16s with those upgraded Javelin drives, not to mention counters to everything the SL has in the pipeline.

So the SLN cannot just follow it's current tech course, the GA will be following that same course for the next couple of years. The will need to find new R&D sources, and that will take time...

PeterZ wrote:Not sure about not being able to manoeuver with the bubble wall on the Spyder ships. We know that a closed forward aspect of an impeller wedge prevents the wedge from accellerating. A buckler doesn't close the wedge and so allows accelleration.

Does the Spyder "legs" have the same limitation? Not sure. Perhaps the "legs" can still operate through holes in the bubble wall and pull the ship forward while the rest of bubble is up.

You can’t. But you are still an invisible object inside a fortress scale bubble, and only for the 40 second ballistic attack run.

PeterZ wrote:Not sure about not being able to manoeuver with the bubble wall on the Spyder ships. We know that a closed forward aspect of an impeller wedge prevents the wedge from accellerating. A buckler doesn't close the wedge and so allows accelleration.

Does the Spyder "legs" have the same limitation? Not sure. Perhaps the "legs" can still operate through holes in the bubble wall and pull the ship forward while the rest of bubble is up.

kzt wrote:You can’t. But you are still an invisible object inside a fortress scale bubble, and only for the 40 second ballistic attack run.

How much coverage will the spider drive tolerate before it stops accelerating? We know the nodes are organized around 3 projectors. Are those 3 all up front and so the rear aspect can be covered? I don't think this incompatibility is absolute. Looking forward to discovering the limits of the drive in the next story arc.

Sigs, appreciate you breakdown of ship numbers.


However, the rest of your arguments are easy to refute because there is in fact no evidence to support their conclusions. You can't operate your military or Star Empire on maybe's and what ifs. What if (to borrow for Star Wars) the MA creates a ship that can cause Stars to go supernova? Then they don't need any SDs nor would it matter if GA built more SDs. The MA can just blow up the suns and destroy the SEM. The GA has to operate based on the intelligence it has, not intelligence it doesn't have or the imagination of readers like you and me. There is plenty of evidence to indicate the MA doesn't have a large navy. There is none to indicate it is large.

A large number of SD(P)s is still not needed. The SEM should maintain them in fleets, not in penny packets spread throughout multiple systems. Picket your systems with smaller/cheaper vessels that still have a qualitative and quantative edge.

To answer your question what if the MA builds 250 SD(P)s and attacks the GA. At this point who knows what would happen. The GA and the SEM in particular still has a qualitative edge at this moment. But it probably won't matter since the GA can't detect the spider drive or target it at this moment that we know of. It would be like the SLN continuing to build Scientist Class SDs even though they know they cant stand up to SD(P)s. Give the Demonic Duo a chance to figure somethings out before you just rebuild ships.

They have been getting hard intelligence on the MA now. The first 600 years the MA was just collecting information and putting people into positions of advantage. That was easy especially with the corruption of the league. But now that people know there is a reason to look for them they have been getting intelligence. Just look at what's been happening since they found out about the organization. it was easy for the MA to stay hidden while it was building up to its plan. But now that they are aware of what's going on the GA has a lot more hard intelligence and is looking a lot harder. I'll be interested to see when they find out about Nesbit's brother. Tree Cats are going to make things much more difficult for the MA.

The GA may or may not immediately start making money with the resumption of trade. But I image that they won't be making a lot of money initially since they'll be concentrating on rebuilding good will with all of the systems they pissed off when they cut off trade. Additionally, while we know some of the transitions in the shell and protectorates went well. Most may or may not be in a position to provide much trade to the SEM. The protectorates especially but also parts of the shell will probably turn into something similar to Silesia where pirates are all over the place. The SEM will need smaller vessels to provide convoy escorts.

munroburton wrote:
They don't need to post SD(P)s everywhere. It's already established that most systems are adequately defended by LAC wings and shoals of pods scattered all over the place. Adequately defended against all but the heaviest attacks, that is, which would presumably be capable of blowing away a squadron of SD(P)s in addition to Mycroft, a hundred thousand pods(which doesn't need Mycroft to be devastating), a thousand LACs and any forts.

You are 100% right, they don't need to be posted everywhere, they just need to be available to reinforce any system in the Empire specifically and the GA in general. Having 350 SD(P)'s allows you the flexibility to reinforce a threatened system(s), having 140 SD(P)'s allows you to protect a few systems and leave the rest to their own devices.

If one way or another the fixed defences are compromised, the RMN needs to be able to reinforce a system. How well would it work out for the SEM if suddenly 90%+ of the systems knew that no matter what they won't be reinforced by heavy units because there are so few and the once they have are committed to the important systems like Manticore.

If the fixed defences are enough and the RMN wanted to go down that route then they should not have a Home Fleet made up of SD(P)'s, they should be 100% offensive weapons.

With the new system-defense doctrine, the only thing they need SD(P)s for is offensive power. For that, they don't need enough to sit a few in every system under their flag - they just need a few concentrated nodal task forces.

What happens if the invincible fixed defences are defeated? If you don't have the firepower to protect your territory and reinforce a systems defence you don't have a nation, you have 60 systems sharing a flag. With 140 SD(P)'s spread out into nodal forces they can be defeated in detail, or they could be send to reinforce a threatened portion of the empire and lose a large portion of their SD(P)s for months on end in Transit. If you have 140 SD(P)s and split them into three, should you be forced to reinforce one area by stripping another you could tie down 2/3 of your fleet for months in the communication/travel loop alone, by the time they become available you are done.

Think of how Haven defended itself against Honor's raids. The few locations they lost were ultimately irrelevant to Haven's overall warfighting capability. They still had Haven and Bolthole and others. It might be harsh, but the truth is that kind of expendability currently applies to many of the SEM's newest members.

Difference is that the member systems knew that there was a large fleet able to reinforce them, Haven likely had 4 or more nodal forces protecting those threatened systems. They were screaming for reinforcements and the RHN was forced to do something, if the RMN left 140 SD(P)'s in their fleet they would be unable to do anything. Having 3 Nodal forces in Talbott totalling 60 SD(P)'s and the same number in Silesia with Manticore Home fleet of 60 SD(P)'s and a central reserve of 190SD(P)'s might give the people of the empire more peace of mind. Otherwise the RMN would have to strip Peters defences to Protect Paul and ultimately leave everyone exposed.

Staying modern is easier with a smaller battle fleet, lest they fall into the trap of a Vast Reserve which acts as a motivation to resist innovation.

That might become a problem if the MA keeps hidden for a few decades or centuries, otherwise the RMN and the GA likely won't face that problem.

PeterZ wrote:

PeterZ wrote:After they solve the detection issue or other visible powers develop SDPs that can challenge their existing battle fleet.

Sigs wrote:So leave 400-800 SD(P)'s partially complete until then?

If they would take resources away from deploying lighter units, then yes. Perhaps it would be better to cannibalize them to build the lighter units. Leave the hulls to completed later when those ships can be effective against the MAN.

They have to build lighter units, lighter units of Havenite designs and capabilities or at most a hybrid at least for a few years. I would say ton for ton the Havenite light combatants are weaker then their Manticoran and Grayson counterparts.Lea ing 400 SD(P)'s unfinished so you can focus on building lighter units means that you still end up with a gap for at least a few years, and in an emergency those 400 SD(P)'s are months or years away from completion.