Spoilers Treecats post UH

PeterZ wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:Luckily this has already happened.

PeterZ wrote:Apologies, the symbolism of written language hasn't been taught yet. No text on it anyway.

Peregrinator wrote:Written language will differ from sign language, which has its own grammar, etc. But I suspect the computers for 2 millenia in the future will be able to translate with a high degree of accuracy. But this is another reason why keyboards and text-to-speech would be more cumbersome; the 'cats would have to learn a whole other language!

I was actually thinking about the 'cats having to use symbolism in yet an extra level. They now use hand/paw symbols to indicate meanings of their mind words. To understand written words, they have to convert aural experiences into visual images that represent mind words. This from beings who represent meaning by direct experience mind to mind with minimal intervening symbols. Sure, they can learn to do so, but that won't be a natural throught process. It won't ever be natural for older 'cats. It can only become a natural process for 'cats that learn this as kittens.

From the author's remarks, they were using more or less conventional American Sign to spell out English words, because after all some of them understand spoken English.

Anything learned by a kitten can be transferred by a mind singer to older cats.

The treecat sign language is not a complete system of written language, only a selection of signed/spelled "words" in the midst of signs that represent words. The "spelling" is really a complex representation of a concept's meaning. Written language is the systemic representation of phonemes in written characters. This is much more symbolic and a greater stretch for Treecats.

Yeah, they can learn it, but that individuals will adopt it as a natural thought process is not a fait accompli. Unless the process is natural, the treecat writing will write poorly.

phillies wrote:From the author's remarks, they were using more or less conventional American Sign to spell out English words, because after all some of them understand spoken English.

I don't think that is necessarily the case. For example Nimitz is depicted using the sign for "Yes" (an S handshape nodded up and down) rather than spelling out "Yes" and Harahap is depicted as musing on learning the sign language used by treecats (the wrong sign for "Yes" is given in this passage, but it's still a sign not a fingerspelled word). Admittedly, I've not read the passages in which Nimitz and Samantha learn sign language in a while, so I could be quite mistaken, but I do seem to recall Nimitz using both hands, which isn't generally the case when one is fingerspelling (one would use only the dominant hand).

Looking at Ashes of Victory I am pretty convinced that the 'cats aren't merely fingerspelling. I'm not 100% convinced, however. Allison Harrington notes that no-one has been able to teach a treecat how to read; if the treecats are fingerspelling then teaching them to read is not that big a leap from there (they would already know how to spell!).

Peregrinator wrote:Looking at Ashes of Victory I am pretty convinced that the 'cats aren't merely fingerspelling. I'm not 100% convinced, however. Allison Harrington notes that no-one has been able to teach a treecat how to read; if the treecats are fingerspelling then teaching them to read is not that big a leap from there (they would already know how to spell!).

Learning finger flicks for mouth noises that have no corresponding People conceptscan not imply learning a phonetic based alphabet required for speech, which they are physiologically incapable of of or the equallt alien concept of symbolic logic required for reading. Refer back to Dr. Arif's detailed explanation previously cited.

And Based on does not mean that it actually exactly corresponds to ASL

'Cats have one less finger than humans IIRC? So ASL would have to be adapted.

pappilon wrote:And Based on does not mean that it actually exactly corresponds to ASL

I'm not sure what part of my post you're actually responding to; could you elaborate?

jchilds wrote:'Cats have one less finger than humans IIRC? So ASL would have to be adapted.

Right, although in a lot of cases the adaptations would not be substantial. I.e. make an I with the fourth finger (what on humans would be the ring finger) instead of the fifth (the little finger), hold up two fingers for an F instead of three, etc.

Peregrinator wrote:

pappilon wrote:And Based on does not mean that it actually exactly corresponds to ASL

I'm not sure what part of my post you're actually responding to; could you elaborate?

Not specific to your post. Just a general observation directed over the text differences over signing Yes. The ESL was used as a starting point, and each cat may have his/her slight variations call it accent or slang, or emphasis. Because cats may all learn from the memory singers, doesn't mean their unique personalities are not expressed in the way they sign as long as the correct meaning is preserved.

pappilon wrote:Not specific to your post. Just a general observation directed over the text differences over signing Yes. The ESL was used as a starting point, and each cat may have his/her slight variations call it accent or slang, or emphasis. Because cats may all learn from the memory singers, doesn't mean their unique personalities are not expressed in the way they sign as long as the correct meaning is preserved.

It's certainly true that sign language speakers have "accents" in the way that they sign or even in the signs they use. "Yes" is pretty fundamental though. And I think the fact that the knowledge of sign language is transmitted through a memory song rather than through traditional teaching would make the evolution of the language less likely than it would be otherwise.