Sidearms

kzt wrote:Reports are that glazer safety slugs are not nearly as effective as you might expect. It’s really designed more for court houses, where you have hard surfaces everywhere to send ricochets everywhere. And it doesn’t ricochet.

Glasers not working as advertised is an understatement. they have had serious issues penetrating enough to do more than make superficial wounds in many cases. like I said above, a wound only a couple inches deep isn't going to incapacitate an attacker and that's what can happen with Glasers if heavy clothing is involved.

The whole concept behind them is to eliminate the danger of over penetration and doing damage behind the target. In a professional protection situation, that limits the danger to bystanders because it's not going through and through. In a civilian home defense situation, that limits the danger to others in other rooms of the home, since most interior walls are nothing more than studs and a couple pieces of sheet rock, behind the target.

Unfortunately, they succeeded all too well at limiting the penetration and there is a serious chance that you won't get enough penetration to do enough damage to the target you want to shoot. When it works as designed, it does massive internal damage and everything tends to stay inside the target. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of circumstances that occur that are less than optimal for it to give that sort of performance.

Gun crime is relatively rare here in Australia, thus it gets much publicity. A couple of years ago a nutter with a shotgun caused a terrorist act by holding a cafe full of hostages right in the CBD of Sydney (our largest city).
During the standoff our TV stations kept running commentary as it was the most watched show in town. Eventually one hostage was shot dead by the nutter, and the specialised police swat team armed with AR15s went in. In the space of about 5 seconds the nutter had a dozen bullets in him, but one unfortunately continued on and killer a lady lawyer hostage.
Looking at similar situations in the EU, the teams seem to be armed with 9 mm sub machineguns, and I believe that would have spared this lady's life here.

Daryl wrote:Gun crime is relatively rare here in Australia, thus it gets much publicity. A couple of years ago a nutter with a shotgun caused a terrorist act by holding a cafe full of hostages right in the CBD of Sydney (our largest city).
During the standoff our TV stations kept running commentary as it was the most watched show in town. Eventually one hostage was shot dead by the nutter, and the specialised police swat team armed with AR15s went in. In the space of about 5 seconds the nutter had a dozen bullets in him, but one unfortunately continued on and killer a lady lawyer hostage.
Looking at similar situations in the EU, the teams seem to be armed with 9 mm sub machineguns, and I believe that would have spared this lady's life here.

9mm ball penetrates really well. Better than M193 5.56 IIRC. But ammo choices can change that. Plus situational awareness by the guy on the trigger, like don't shoot if someone else has a better shot and you only have a marginal shot.

kzt wrote:9mm ball penetrates really well. Better than M193 5.56 IIRC. But ammo choices can change that. Plus situational awareness by the guy on the trigger, like don't shoot if someone else has a better shot and you only have a marginal shot.

And when, in the US, when multiple officers have taken the shot has any one of them ever not fired? Cops get a bye here when it comes to killing people. Yeah, blah blah, administrative leave (= paid vacation), Full hearing (= cop did job as trained, within department protocols, collateral damage) no charges. Maybe city/department coughs up $a Mil in damages to the family and an apology.

pappilon wrote:

kzt wrote:9mm ball penetrates really well. Better than M193 5.56 IIRC. But ammo choices can change that. Plus situational awareness by the guy on the trigger, like don't shoot if someone else has a better shot and you only have a marginal shot.

And when, in the US, when multiple officers have taken the shot has any one of them ever not fired? Cops get a bye here when it comes to killing people. Yeah, blah blah, administrative leave (= paid vacation), Full hearing (= cop did job as trained, within department protocols, collateral damage) no charges. Maybe city/department coughs up $a Mil in damages to the family and an apology.

Usually the guys on elite teams are better than that. Most urban cops never handled a gun until the PD issued it and they are terrible shots who never practice outside of what passes for qualification. The guys who get on ESU/SWAT are supposed to be much better.

kzt wrote:
Usually the guys on elite teams are better than that. Most urban cops never handled a gun until the PD issued it and they are terrible shots who never practice outside of what passes for qualification. The guys who get on ESU/SWAT are supposed to be much better.

Seems a lot of those concealed carry guys are much better too. Which puts the lie to more guns on an active shooter environment make people actually safer. There was a shooting at a mall near here a few Christmases ago. seems there were, in fact, at least a half dozen armed citizens on scene who never took a shot at the real shooter exactly because they could not get a clear shot.