UH SPOILERS Harrington family history

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:..snip..
Isn't that pretty much what insanity is? Decoupled reasoning?

Not necessarily. And from the Detweilers viewpoint what they are doing is entirely rational and for the greater good.

But as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

As claimed by Hitler first.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:..snip..
Isn't that pretty much what insanity is? Decoupled reasoning?

Joat42 wrote:Not necessarily. And from the Detweilers viewpoint what they are doing is entirely rational and for the greater good.

But as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

pappilon wrote:Insanity is a legal concept, not a medical one. Mental illness like Megalomania is a medical concept.

Legally, insanity is mental illness so severe that a person cannot distinguish right from wrong. Killing someone's adopted child because the traits you wish her to express bring on certain unwanted side effects is wrong. Killing hundreds of thousands of people to cover the evacuation of hundreds, is ... extremely questionable.

One could also argue that sitting by knowing that Coventry Gardens would be bombed and doing nothing, or dropping atomic bombs on a couple of Japanese cities are equally acts of insanity.

That's what many people miss. The Detweilers have changed the paradigm quite a bit. Because of their genetic tampering, their insanity could be of the medical kind. As well as spiritual, for those so inclined to understand that notion.


Unfair about the Japanese bombings. War itself is insane. If one must partake, then take. The will to survive is God given. When the options are kill or be killed, the choice is clear.

Insanity is going gently into that good night, going down without a fight, in the rage and dying of the light.

What the Detweilers are doing is totally unnecessary for their survival. They have no governors installed. The ends does not always justify the means. Centuries hanging on to hatred is the mark of schoolyard insanity. Beowulf licked his ice cream centuries ago and he's still livid.

I would simply point out that Leonard Detweiller would be horrified if he knew where the plan named for him has gone. He believed passionately in targeted genetic uplift. He believed passionately that Beowulf had had a "genetically modified organism" panic attack far worse than anything farmers face today and that it was closing off avenues of research and modification which could have hugely benefited the human race.

And he was right.

He fought passionately for his beliefs on Beowulf, and was rejected and (in many cases) actively reviled by people who'd been too horrified by the Final War to address his arguments rationally. In many ways, he was driven into an echo chamber where the only people who would talk to him were people who agreed with him, many of whom were considerably less rational than he was. A firebrand leader has a tendency to attract extremists, including those who are more extreme than he is, and there were people like that on Beowulf at the time. Detweiller didn't agree with the lunatic fringe of his own movement, but very few people outside his movement would engage in any real, rational dialog with him. So the only people giving him feedback that wasn't (as he saw it, not without reason) instantly and irrationally hostile either agreed with him or held even more extreme views than he did . . . and decamped to Mesa with him.

Where they were even further reviled by the Beowulf establishment for having dared to set up their "perverted" version of Beowulf genetic ethics and morality.

Let's see. Given that seed corn, anyone would be bound to mellow and become Mother Theresa, right?

Didn't think so.

By the time of the Mesan migration, Leonard's bitterness quotient had set in to a point that genuinely began to affect his own judgment, which, I think, was entirely understandable. At that point, he began to produce designed human beings as colonists and workers. Which, BTW, is exactly how the original Meyerdahl mods were created before the Beowulf Code shut things down. He regarded his work as (1) forwarding his research; (2) providing human beings ideally suited for their eventual environments; (3) an ongoing testimonial for what targeted genetic modification could provide for the human race in general, and (4) a way to put a stick right into Beowulf's sanctimonious eye and twist it. During his lifetime, however, genetically modified humans on Mesa were indentured servants who could --- and who, he intended, would --- earn full citizenship for themselves and their children. There would have been no more stigma attached to them, no more legal disabilities, than for a Greek scholar who'd been enslaved by Rome but then manumitted and granted citizenship. The Founders' clear intent is, alas, sometimes . . . modified by later generations, and that happened in this case, which is the origin of the seccies of Honor's day.

A point which should be made here is that the prejudice against "genies" and genetic slaves on "racial" grounds did not originate on Mesa. It was the product of the rest of the galaxy's revulsion for the entire concept, visited upon individuals who had been modified, even if the modification had happened in their great-great-grandparents' generation. Stephanie Harrington herself reflects on this. What I'm saying is that Deteiller was producing the genies; the rest of the galaxy was producing the hatred for them . . . and that sense of superiority to them was never part of the Mesan mindset during Leonard's day.

He definitely did begin the arc which led to the present day Alignment, and his tirades against the Beowulf establishment grew increasingly . . . intemperate as time went on. Many of the things he said, especially near the end of his life, have been seized upon by the current day Alignment as justifications for its own beliefs and actions, but in the process, they've been twisted into things he never really meant to say. (Not a hard thing for True Believers to do when they need the original Holy Writ to agree with them . . . whether it does or not.) But his version of the Alignment (had he lived to see it formally inaugurated in any format) would have been exactly the one Mike Henke found on Mesa after Houdini. He would never have signed off on some sort of mega conspiracy that was willing to kill billions in the name of genetic uplift! And there was no "Detweiller Plan" while Leonard was alive.

The Alignment of Honor's time was intended from the beginning (by me) to underscore the danger of ideologues, whatever their ideology or however justified it may have seemed (or even been) in the beginning. By the time of UH, a good man's dream and fight for the future of the entire human race has been transformed into a ruthless, ideology and vengeance driven machine willing to kill however many people it takes --- literally --- to put them in charge of all creation because they are alpha lines which means --- by definition --- that they are smarter, stronger, and faster than anyone else in the entire universe and thus uniquely qualified and entitled to rule. They are, if you will, the vanguard of the genotype (although they have no intention of withering away). And, as a consequence of how superbly fitted they are for their genetic-given role, it's obvious all those unbelievers deserve to be kicked to the curb because their ancestors were so nasty to Leonard.

edited once

n7axw wrote:Making the full disclosure that I have not read the book and do not plan to do so until it's published, I find myself not believing the claim. I'm not sure why, but I don't think it passes the smell test. What does anyone have to gain by making such an assertion about the Harrington family? Is there any real basis for the notion apart from the Detweilers assertion???

Don

-

Attaboy Don, shore yourself up for any future authorial curve balls! LOL

But the notion doesn't seem so far fetched. In the same sense that man was originally descendant from Adam, until Jesus. So too are all of the gene mods descended from one or more branch of the original research. No?

I would simply point out that Leonard Detweiller would be horrified if he knew where the plan named for him has gone. He believed passionately in targeted genetic uplift. He believed passionately that Beowulf had had a "genetically modified organism" panic attack far worse than anything farmers face today and that it was closing off avenues of research and modification which could have hugely benefited the human race.

And he was right.

He fought passionately for his beliefs on Beowulf, and was rejected and (in many cases) actively reviled by people who'd been too horrified by the Final War to address his arguments rationally. In many ways, he was driven into an echo chamber where the only people who would talk to him were people who agreed with him, many of whom were considerably less rational than he was. A firebrand leader has a tendency to attract extremists, including those who are more extreme than he is, and there were people like that on Beowulf at the time. Detweiller didn't agree with the lunatic fringe of his own movement, but very few people outside his movement would engage in any real, rational dialog with him. So the only people giving him feedback that wasn't (as he saw it, not without reason) instantly and irrationally hostile either agreed with him or held even more extreme views than he did . . . and decamped to Mesa with him.

Where they were even further reviled by the Beowulf establishment for having dared to set up their "perverted" version of Beowulf genetic ethics and morality.

Let's see. Given that seed corn, anyone would be bound to mellow and become Mother Theresa, right?

Didn't think so.

By the time of the Mesan migration, Leonard's bitterness quotient had set in to a point that genuinely began to affect his own judgment, which, I think, was entirely understandable. At that point, he began to produce designed human beings as colonists and workers. Which, BTW, is exactly how the original Meyerdahl mods were created before the Beowulf Code shut things down. He regarded his work as (1) forwarding his research; (2) providing human beings ideally suited for their eventual environments; (3) an ongoing testimonial for what targeted genetic modification could provide for the human race in general, and (4) a way to put a stick right into Beowulf's sanctimonious eye and twist it. During his lifetime, however, genetically modified humans on Mesa were indentured servants who could --- and who, he intended, would --- earn full citizenship for themselves and their children. There would have been no more stigma attached to them, no more legal disabilities, than for a Greek scholar who'd been enslaved by Rome but then manumitted and granted citizenship. The Founders' clear intent is, alas, sometimes . . . modified by later generations, and that happened in this case, which is the origin of the seccies of Honor's day.

A point which should be made here is that the prejudice against "genies" and genetic slaves on "racial" grounds did not originate on Mesa. It was the product of the rest of the galaxy's revulsion for the entire concept, visited upon individuals who had been modified, even if the modification had happened in their great-great-grandparents' generation. Stephanie Harrington herself reflects on this. What I'm saying is that Deteiller was producing the genies; the rest of the galaxy was producing the hatred for them . . . and that sense of superiority to them was never part of the Mesan mindset during Leonard's day.

He definitely did begin the arc which led to the present day Alignment, and his tirades against the Beowulf establishment grew increasingly . . . intemperate as time went on. Many of the things he said, especially near the end of his life, have been seized upon by the current day Alignment as justifications for its own beliefs and actions, but in the process, they've been twisted into things he never really meant to say. (Not a hard thing for True Believers to do when they need the original Holy Writ to agree with them . . . whether it does or not.) But his version of the Alignment (had he lived to see it formally inaugurated in any format) would have been exactly the one Mike Henke found on Mesa after Houdini. He would never have signed off on some sort of mega conspiracy that was willing to kill billions in the name of genetic uplift! And there was no "Detweiller Plan" while Leonard was alive.

The Alignment of Honor's time was intended from the beginning (by me) to underscore the danger of ideologues, whatever their ideology or however justified it may have seemed (or even been) in the beginning. By the time of UH, a good man's dream and fight for the future of the entire human race has been transformed into a ruthless, ideology and vengeance driven machine willing to kill however many people it takes --- literally --- to put them in charge of all creation because they are alpha lines which means --- by definition --- that they are smarter, stronger, and faster than anyone else in the entire universe and thus uniquely qualified and entitled to rule. They are, if you will, the vanguard of the genotype (although they have no intention of withering away). And, as a consequence of how superbly fitted they are for their genetic-given role, it's obvious all those unbelievers deserve to be kicked to the curb because their ancestors were so nasty to Leonard.

edited once

Thanks, RFC. I wish this appeared in the series text somewhere.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:..snip..
Isn't that pretty much what insanity is? Decoupled reasoning?

Joat42 wrote:Not necessarily. And from the Detweilers viewpoint what they are doing is entirely rational and for the greater good.

But as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

pappilon wrote:Insanity is a legal concept, not a medical one. Mental illness like Megalomania is a medical concept.

Legally, insanity is mental illness so severe that a person cannot distinguish right from wrong. Killing someone's adopted child because the traits you wish her to express bring on certain unwanted side effects is wrong. Killing hundreds of thousands of people to cover the evacuation of hundreds, is ... extremely questionable.

One could also argue that sitting by knowing that Coventry Gardens would be bombed and doing nothing, or dropping atomic bombs on a couple of Japanese cities are equally acts of insanity.

That's what many people miss. The Detweilers have changed the paradigm quite a bit. Because of their genetic tampering, their insanity could be of the medical kind. As well as spiritual, for those so inclined to understand that notion.


Unfair about the Japanese bombings. War itself is insane. If one must partake, then take. The will to survive is God given. When the options are kill or be killed, the choice is clear.

Insanity is going gently into that good night, going down without a fight, in the rage and dying of the light.

What the Detweilers are doing is totally unnecessary for their survival. They have no governors installed. The ends does not always justify the means. Centuries hanging on to hatred is the mark of schoolyard insanity. Beowulf licked his ice cream centuries ago and he's still livid.

runsforcelery wrote:I would simply point out that Leonard Detweiller would be horrified if he knew where the plan named for him has gone. He believed passionately in targeted genetic uplift. He believed passionately that Beowulf had had a "genetically modified organism" panic attack far worse than anything farmers face today and that it was closing off avenues of research and modification which could have hugely benefited the human race.

And he was right.

He fought passionately for his beliefs on Beowulf, and was rejected and (in many cases) actively reviled by people who'd been too horrified by the Final War to address his arguments rationally. In many ways, he was driven into an echo chamber where the only people who would talk to him were people who agreed with him, many of whom were considerably less rational than he was. A firebrand leader has a tendency to attract extremists, including those who are more extreme than he is, and there were people like that on Beowulf at the time. Detweiller didn't agree with the lunatic fringe of his own movement, but very few people outside his movement would engage in any real, rational dialog with him. So the only people giving him feedback that wasn't (as he saw it, not without reason) instantly and irrationally hostile either agreed with him or held even more extreme views than he did . . . and decamped to Mesa with him.

Where they were even further reviled by the Beowulf establishment for having dared to set up their "perverted" version of Beowulf genetic ethics and morality.

Let's see. Given that seed corn, anyone would be bound to mellow and become Mother Theresa, right?

Didn't think so.

By the time of the Mesan migration, Leonard's bitterness quotient had set in to a point that genuinely began to affect his own judgment, which, I think, was entirely understandable. At that point, he began to produce designed human beings as colonists and workers. Which, BTW, is exactly how the original Meyerdahl mods were created before the Beowulf Code shut things down. He regarded his work as (1) forwarding his research; (2) providing human beings ideally suited for their eventual environments; (3) an ongoing testimonial for what targeted genetic modification could provide for the human race in general, and (4) a way to put a stick right into Beowulf's sanctimonious eye and twist it. During his lifetime, however, genetically modified humans on Mesa were indentured servants who could --- and who, he intended, would --- earn full citizenship for themselves and their children. There would have been no more stigma attached to them, no more legal disabilities, than for a Greek scholar who'd been enslaved by Rome but then manumitted and granted citizenship. The Founders' clear intent is, alas, sometimes . . . modified by later generations, and that happened in this case, which is the origin of the seccies of Honor's day.

A point which should be made here is that the prejudice against "genies" and genetic slaves on "racial" grounds did not originate on Mesa. It was the product of the rest of the galaxy's revulsion for the entire concept, visited upon individuals who had been modified, even if the modification had happened in their great-great-grandparents' generation. Stephanie Harrington herself reflects on this. What I'm saying is that Deteiller was producing the genies; the rest of the galaxy was producing the hatred for them . . . and that sense of superiority to them was never part of the Mesan mindset during Leonard's day.

He definitely did begin the arc which led to the present day Alignment, and his tirades against the Beowulf establishment grew increasingly . . . intemperate as time went on. Many of the things he said, especially near the end of his life, have been seized upon by the current day Alignment as justifications for its own beliefs and actions, but in the process, they've been twisted into things he never really meant to say. (Not a hard thing for True Believers to do when they need the original Holy Writ to agree with them . . . whether it does or not.) But his version of the Alignment (had he lived to see it formally inaugurated in any format) would have been exactly the one Mike Henke found on Mesa after Houdini. He would never have signed off on some sort of mega conspiracy that was willing to kill billions in the name of genetic uplift! And there was no "Detweiller Plan" while Leonard was alive.

The Alignment of Honor's time was intended from the beginning (by me) to underscore the danger of ideologues, whatever their ideology or however justified it may have seemed (or even been) in the beginning. By the time of UH, a good man's dream and fight for the future of the entire human race has been transformed into a ruthless, ideology and vengeance driven machine willing to kill however many people it takes --- literally --- to put them in charge of all creation because they are alpha lines which means --- by definition --- that they are smarter, stronger, and faster than anyone else in the entire universe and thus uniquely qualified and entitled to rule. They are, if you will, the vanguard of the genotype (although they have no intention of withering away). And, as a consequence of how superbly fitted they are for their genetic-given role, it's obvious all those unbelievers deserve to be kicked to the curb because their ancestors were so nasty to Leonard.

edited once

One question. Was Leonard privy to the ugliness and the horrors going on in and out of the labs, the culling of living lines, the wholesale slaughter of babies? Sounds more like a rocky horror picture show.

cthia wrote:

n7axw wrote:Making the full disclosure that I have not read the book and do not plan to do so until it's published, I find myself not believing the claim. I'm not sure why, but I don't think it passes the smell test. What does anyone have to gain by making such an assertion about the Harrington family? Is there any real basis for the notion apart from the Detweilers assertion???

Don

-

Attaboy Don, shore yourself up for any future authorial curve balls! LOL

But the notion doesn't seem so far fetched. In the same sense that man was originally descendant from Adam, until Jesus. So too are all of the gene mods descended from one or more branch of the original research. No?

And, Honor and Alfred do seem to have a tendency to share the same spent nuclear fuel at their core as some of the Alphas. Honor and Alfred may not actually have a screw loose, but there's a bolt or two that needs tightening.

I would imagine that the Meyerdahl B mods stopped just short of the slippery slope. Anisimovna has always reminded me of Honor. I do wonder which of the Alpha lines are the closest to Meyerdahl B at its core.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:..snip..
Isn't that pretty much what insanity is? Decoupled reasoning?

Joat42 wrote:Not necessarily. And from the Detweilers viewpoint what they are doing is entirely rational and for the greater good.

But as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

pappilon wrote:Insanity is a legal concept, not a medical one. Mental illness like Megalomania is a medical concept.

Legally, insanity is mental illness so severe that a person cannot distinguish right from wrong. Killing someone's adopted child because the traits you wish her to express bring on certain unwanted side effects is wrong. Killing hundreds of thousands of people to cover the evacuation of hundreds, is ... extremely questionable.

One could also argue that sitting by knowing that Coventry Gardens would be bombed and doing nothing, or dropping atomic bombs on a couple of Japanese cities are equally acts of insanity.

That's what many people miss. The Detweilers have changed the paradigm quite a bit. Because of their genetic tampering, their insanity could be of the medical kind. As well as spiritual, for those so inclined to understand that notion.


Unfair about the Japanese bombings. War itself is insane. If one must partake, then take. The will to survive is God given. When the options are kill or be killed, the choice is clear.

Insanity is going gently into that good night, going down without a fight, in the rage and dying of the light.

What the Detweilers are doing is totally unnecessary for their survival. They have no governors installed. The ends does not always justify the means. Centuries hanging on to hatred is the mark of schoolyard insanity. Beowulf licked his ice cream centuries ago and he's still livid.

runsforcelery wrote:I would simply point out that Leonard Detweiller would be horrified if he knew where the plan named for him has gone. He believed passionately in targeted genetic uplift. He believed passionately that Beowulf had had a "genetically modified organism" panic attack far worse than anything farmers face today and that it was closing off avenues of research and modification which could have hugely benefited the human race.

And he was right.

He fought passionately for his beliefs on Beowulf, and was rejected and (in many cases) actively reviled by people who'd been too horrified by the Final War to address his arguments rationally. In many ways, he was driven into an echo chamber where the only people who would talk to him were people who agreed with him, many of whom were considerably less rational than he was. A firebrand leader has a tendency to attract extremists, including those who are more extreme than he is, and there were people like that on Beowulf at the time. Detweiller didn't agree with the lunatic fringe of his own movement, but very few people outside his movement would engage in any real, rational dialog with him. So the only people giving him feedback that wasn't (as he saw it, not without reason) instantly and irrationally hostile either agreed with him or held even more extreme views than he did . . . and decamped to Mesa with him.

Where they were even further reviled by the Beowulf establishment for having dared to set up their "perverted" version of Beowulf genetic ethics and morality.

Let's see. Given that seed corn, anyone would be bound to mellow and become Mother Theresa, right?

Didn't think so.

By the time of the Mesan migration, Leonard's bitterness quotient had set in to a point that genuinely began to affect his own judgment, which, I think, was entirely understandable. At that point, he began to produce designed human beings as colonists and workers. Which, BTW, is exactly how the original Meyerdahl mods were created before the Beowulf Code shut things down. He regarded his work as (1) forwarding his research; (2) providing human beings ideally suited for their eventual environments; (3) an ongoing testimonial for what targeted genetic modification could provide for the human race in general, and (4) a way to put a stick right into Beowulf's sanctimonious eye and twist it. During his lifetime, however, genetically modified humans on Mesa were indentured servants who could --- and who, he intended, would --- earn full citizenship for themselves and their children. There would have been no more stigma attached to them, no more legal disabilities, than for a Greek scholar who'd been enslaved by Rome but then manumitted and granted citizenship. The Founders' clear intent is, alas, sometimes . . . modified by later generations, and that happened in this case, which is the origin of the seccies of Honor's day.

A point which should be made here is that the prejudice against "genies" and genetic slaves on "racial" grounds did not originate on Mesa. It was the product of the rest of the galaxy's revulsion for the entire concept, visited upon individuals who had been modified, even if the modification had happened in their great-great-grandparents' generation. Stephanie Harrington herself reflects on this. What I'm saying is that Deteiller was producing the genies; the rest of the galaxy was producing the hatred for them . . . and that sense of superiority to them was never part of the Mesan mindset during Leonard's day.

He definitely did begin the arc which led to the present day Alignment, and his tirades against the Beowulf establishment grew increasingly . . . intemperate as time went on. Many of the things he said, especially near the end of his life, have been seized upon by the current day Alignment as justifications for its own beliefs and actions, but in the process, they've been twisted into things he never really meant to say. (Not a hard thing for True Believers to do when they need the original Holy Writ to agree with them . . . whether it does or not.) But his version of the Alignment (had he lived to see it formally inaugurated in any format) would have been exactly the one Mike Henke found on Mesa after Houdini. He would never have signed off on some sort of mega conspiracy that was willing to kill billions in the name of genetic uplift! And there was no "Detweiller Plan" while Leonard was alive.

The Alignment of Honor's time was intended from the beginning (by me) to underscore the danger of ideologues, whatever their ideology or however justified it may have seemed (or even been) in the beginning. By the time of UH, a good man's dream and fight for the future of the entire human race has been transformed into a ruthless, ideology and vengeance driven machine willing to kill however many people it takes --- literally --- to put them in charge of all creation because they are alpha lines which means --- by definition --- that they are smarter, stronger, and faster than anyone else in the entire universe and thus uniquely qualified and entitled to rule. They are, if you will, the vanguard of the genotype (although they have no intention of withering away). And, as a consequence of how superbly fitted they are for their genetic-given role, it's obvious all those unbelievers deserve to be kicked to the curb because their ancestors were so nasty to Leonard.

edited once

cthia wrote:One question. Was Leonard privy to the ugliness and the horrors going on in and out of the labs, the culling of living lines, the wholesale slaughter of babies? Sounds more like a rocky horror picture show.

As I understand it, in Beowulf's defense, I don't think they deny the potential benefit to mankind. They simply don't think its worth the potential risks, because one misstep could be disastrous the next time around. And whose backs will it fall upon to clean up the mess and head off man's fate to go the way of the dinosaurs? Would the Alignment step forward and help? Right.

BTW, RFC. I know you're much too busy. But just for the record you see, a story during the days of the Final Wars would be like manna. Like manna I tell you. Like manna. You can simply title it... The Final Wars.

"Fire on any unauthorized ship trying to flee the system!"

Whatta read!

runsforcelery wrote:

I would simply point out that Leonard Detweiller would be horrified if he knew where the plan named for him has gone. He believed passionately in targeted genetic uplift. He believed passionately that Beowulf had had a "genetically modified organism" panic attack far worse than anything farmers face today and that it was closing off avenues of research and modification which could have hugely benefited the human race.

And he was right.

He fought passionately for his beliefs on Beowulf, and was rejected and (in many cases) actively reviled by people who'd been too horrified by the Final War to address his arguments rationally. In many ways, he was driven into an echo chamber where the only people who would talk to him were people who agreed with him, many of whom were considerably less rational than he was. A firebrand leader has a tendency to attract extremists, including those who are more extreme than he is, and there were people like that on Beowulf at the time. Detweiller didn't agree with the lunatic fringe of his own movement, but very few people outside his movement would engage in any real, rational dialog with him. So the only people giving him feedback that wasn't (as he saw it, not without reason) instantly and irrationally hostile either agreed with him or held even more extreme views than he did . . . and decamped to Mesa with him.

Where they were even further reviled by the Beowulf establishment for having dared to set up their "perverted" version of Beowulf genetic ethics and morality.

Let's see. Given that seed corn, anyone would be bound to mellow and become Mother Theresa, right?

Didn't think so.

By the time of the Mesan migration, Leonard's bitterness quotient had set in to a point that genuinely began to affect his own judgment, which, I think, was entirely understandable. At that point, he began to produce designed human beings as colonists and workers. Which, BTW, is exactly how the original Meyerdahl mods were created before the Beowulf Code shut things down. He regarded his work as (1) forwarding his research; (2) providing human beings ideally suited for their eventual environments; (3) an ongoing testimonial for what targeted genetic modification could provide for the human race in general, and (4) a way to put a stick right into Beowulf's sanctimonious eye and twist it. During his lifetime, however, genetically modified humans on Mesa were indentured servants who could --- and who, he intended, would --- earn full citizenship for themselves and their children. There would have been no more stigma attached to them, no more legal disabilities, than for a Greek scholar who'd been enslaved by Rome but then manumitted and granted citizenship. The Founders' clear intent is, alas, sometimes . . . modified by later generations, and that happened in this case, which is the origin of the seccies of Honor's day.

A point which should be made here is that the prejudice against "genies" and genetic slaves on "racial" grounds did not originate on Mesa. It was the product of the rest of the galaxy's revulsion for the entire concept, visited upon individuals who had been modified, even if the modification had happened in their great-great-grandparents' generation. Stephanie Harrington herself reflects on this. What I'm saying is that Deteiller was producing the genies; the rest of the galaxy was producing the hatred for them . . . and that sense of superiority to them was never part of the Mesan mindset during Leonard's day.

He definitely did begin the arc which led to the present day Alignment, and his tirades against the Beowulf establishment grew increasingly . . . intemperate as time went on. Many of the things he said, especially near the end of his life, have been seized upon by the current day Alignment as justifications for its own beliefs and actions, but in the process, they've been twisted into things he never really meant to say. (Not a hard thing for True Believers to do when they need the original Holy Writ to agree with them . . . whether it does or not.) But his version of the Alignment (had he lived to see it formally inaugurated in any format) would have been exactly the one Mike Henke found on Mesa after Houdini. He would never have signed off on some sort of mega conspiracy that was willing to kill billions in the name of genetic uplift! And there was no "Detweiller Plan" while Leonard was alive.

The Alignment of Honor's time was intended from the beginning (by me) to underscore the danger of ideologues, whatever their ideology or however justified it may have seemed (or even been) in the beginning. By the time of UH, a good man's dream and fight for the future of the entire human race has been transformed into a ruthless, ideology and vengeance driven machine willing to kill however many people it takes --- literally --- to put them in charge of all creation because they are alpha lines which means --- by definition --- that they are smarter, stronger, and faster than anyone else in the entire universe and thus uniquely qualified and entitled to rule. They are, if you will, the vanguard of the genotype (although they have no intention of withering away). And, as a consequence of how superbly fitted they are for their genetic-given role, it's obvious all those unbelievers deserve to be kicked to the curb because their ancestors were so nasty to Leonard.

edited once

The question comes to my mind is whether the current "visible" Alignment hold views that are consistent with modern Honorverse thought? If they do, then might it not be said that Leonard detweiler was proven correct in time? That the original Alpha lines that were separated from the Onion, like Harrington, truly were the heirs to Leonard Detweiler?

I find something truly satisfying at the thought of current Alpha lines discovering that particular truth. Especially, when the executors of their enemies planned resistance are their cousins who reject their current ideas, but not the ideas of their genesis.

ksandgren wrote:

I would simply point out that Leonard Detweiller would be horrified if he knew where the plan named for him has gone. He believed passionately in targeted genetic uplift. He believed passionately that Beowulf had had a "genetically modified organism" panic attack far worse than anything farmers face today and that it was closing off avenues of research and modification which could have hugely benefited the human race.

And he was right.

He fought passionately for his beliefs on Beowulf, and was rejected and (in many cases) actively reviled by people who'd been too horrified by the Final War to address his arguments rationally. In many ways, he was driven into an echo chamber where the only people who would talk to him were people who agreed with him, many of whom were considerably less rational than he was. A firebrand leader has a tendency to attract extremists, including those who are more extreme than he is, and there were people like that on Beowulf at the time. Detweiller didn't agree with the lunatic fringe of his own movement, but very few people outside his movement would engage in any real, rational dialog with him. So the only people giving him feedback that wasn't (as he saw it, not without reason) instantly and irrationally hostile either agreed with him or held even more extreme views than he did . . . and decamped to Mesa with him.

Where they were even further reviled by the Beowulf establishment for having dared to set up their "perverted" version of Beowulf genetic ethics and morality.

Let's see. Given that seed corn, anyone would be bound to mellow and become Mother Theresa, right?

Didn't think so.

By the time of the Mesan migration, Leonard's bitterness quotient had set in to a point that genuinely began to affect his own judgment, which, I think, was entirely understandable. At that point, he began to produce designed human beings as colonists and workers. Which, BTW, is exactly how the original Meyerdahl mods were created before the Beowulf Code shut things down. He regarded his work as (1) forwarding his research; (2) providing human beings ideally suited for their eventual environments; (3) an ongoing testimonial for what targeted genetic modification could provide for the human race in general, and (4) a way to put a stick right into Beowulf's sanctimonious eye and twist it. During his lifetime, however, genetically modified humans on Mesa were indentured servants who could --- and who, he intended, would --- earn full citizenship for themselves and their children. There would have been no more stigma attached to them, no more legal disabilities, than for a Greek scholar who'd been enslaved by Rome but then manumitted and granted citizenship. The Founders' clear intent is, alas, sometimes . . . modified by later generations, and that happened in this case, which is the origin of the seccies of Honor's day.

A point which should be made here is that the prejudice against "genies" and genetic slaves on "racial" grounds did not originate on Mesa. It was the product of the rest of the galaxy's revulsion for the entire concept, visited upon individuals who had been modified, even if the modification had happened in their great-great-grandparents' generation. Stephanie Harrington herself reflects on this. What I'm saying is that Deteiller was producing the genies; the rest of the galaxy was producing the hatred for them . . . and that sense of superiority to them was never part of the Mesan mindset during Leonard's day.

He definitely did begin the arc which led to the present day Alignment, and his tirades against the Beowulf establishment grew increasingly . . . intemperate as time went on. Many of the things he said, especially near the end of his life, have been seized upon by the current day Alignment as justifications for its own beliefs and actions, but in the process, they've been twisted into things he never really meant to say. (Not a hard thing for True Believers to do when they need the original Holy Writ to agree with them . . . whether it does or not.) But his version of the Alignment (had he lived to see it formally inaugurated in any format) would have been exactly the one Mike Henke found on Mesa after Houdini. He would never have signed off on some sort of mega conspiracy that was willing to kill billions in the name of genetic uplift! And there was no "Detweiller Plan" while Leonard was alive.

The Alignment of Honor's time was intended from the beginning (by me) to underscore the danger of ideologues, whatever their ideology or however justified it may have seemed (or even been) in the beginning. By the time of UH, a good man's dream and fight for the future of the entire human race has been transformed into a ruthless, ideology and vengeance driven machine willing to kill however many people it takes --- literally --- to put them in charge of all creation because they are alpha lines which means --- by definition --- that they are smarter, stronger, and faster than anyone else in the entire universe and thus uniquely qualified and entitled to rule. They are, if you will, the vanguard of the genotype (although they have no intention of withering away). And, as a consequence of how superbly fitted they are for their genetic-given role, it's obvious all those unbelievers deserve to be kicked to the curb because their ancestors were so nasty to Leonard.

edited once

Thanks, RFC. I wish this appeared in the series text somewhere.

Uh, big reveal if the good guydtever bust the Alignmywide open? A little Beowulfan soul searching on the day? And maybe sometimes even I do subtle?

PeterZ wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:

I would simply point out that Leonard Detweiller would be horrified if he knew where the plan named for him has gone. He believed passionately in targeted genetic uplift. He believed passionately that Beowulf had had a "genetically modified organism" panic attack far worse than anything farmers face today and that it was closing off avenues of research and modification which could have hugely benefited the human race.

And he was right.

He fought passionately for his beliefs on Beowulf, and was rejected and (in many cases) actively reviled by people who'd been too horrified by the Final War to address his arguments rationally. In many ways, he was driven into an echo chamber where the only people who would talk to him were people who agreed with him, many of whom were considerably less rational than he was. A firebrand leader has a tendency to attract extremists, including those who are more extreme than he is, and there were people like that on Beowulf at the time. Detweiller didn't agree with the lunatic fringe of his own movement, but very few people outside his movement would engage in any real, rational dialog with him. So the only people giving him feedback that wasn't (as he saw it, not without reason) instantly and irrationally hostile either agreed with him or held even more extreme views than he did . . . and decamped to Mesa with him.

Where they were even further reviled by the Beowulf establishment for having dared to set up their "perverted" version of Beowulf genetic ethics and morality.

Let's see. Given that seed corn, anyone would be bound to mellow and become Mother Theresa, right?

Didn't think so.

By the time of the Mesan migration, Leonard's bitterness quotient had set in to a point that genuinely began to affect his own judgment, which, I think, was entirely understandable. At that point, he began to produce designed human beings as colonists and workers. Which, BTW, is exactly how the original Meyerdahl mods were created before the Beowulf Code shut things down. He regarded his work as (1) forwarding his research; (2) providing human beings ideally suited for their eventual environments; (3) an ongoing testimonial for what targeted genetic modification could provide for the human race in general, and (4) a way to put a stick right into Beowulf's sanctimonious eye and twist it. During his lifetime, however, genetically modified humans on Mesa were indentured servants who could --- and who, he intended, would --- earn full citizenship for themselves and their children. There would have been no more stigma attached to them, no more legal disabilities, than for a Greek scholar who'd been enslaved by Rome but then manumitted and granted citizenship. The Founders' clear intent is, alas, sometimes . . . modified by later generations, and that happened in this case, which is the origin of the seccies of Honor's day.

A point which should be made here is that the prejudice against "genies" and genetic slaves on "racial" grounds did not originate on Mesa. It was the product of the rest of the galaxy's revulsion for the entire concept, visited upon individuals who had been modified, even if the modification had happened in their great-great-grandparents' generation. Stephanie Harrington herself reflects on this. What I'm saying is that Deteiller was producing the genies; the rest of the galaxy was producing the hatred for them . . . and that sense of superiority to them was never part of the Mesan mindset during Leonard's day.

He definitely did begin the arc which led to the present day Alignment, and his tirades against the Beowulf establishment grew increasingly . . . intemperate as time went on. Many of the things he said, especially near the end of his life, have been seized upon by the current day Alignment as justifications for its own beliefs and actions, but in the process, they've been twisted into things he never really meant to say. (Not a hard thing for True Believers to do when they need the original Holy Writ to agree with them . . . whether it does or not.) But his version of the Alignment (had he lived to see it formally inaugurated in any format) would have been exactly the one Mike Henke found on Mesa after Houdini. He would never have signed off on some sort of mega conspiracy that was willing to kill billions in the name of genetic uplift! And there was no "Detweiller Plan" while Leonard was alive.

The Alignment of Honor's time was intended from the beginning (by me) to underscore the danger of ideologues, whatever their ideology or however justified it may have seemed (or even been) in the beginning. By the time of UH, a good man's dream and fight for the future of the entire human race has been transformed into a ruthless, ideology and vengeance driven machine willing to kill however many people it takes --- literally --- to put them in charge of all creation because they are alpha lines which means --- by definition --- that they are smarter, stronger, and faster than anyone else in the entire universe and thus uniquely qualified and entitled to rule. They are, if you will, the vanguard of the genotype (although they have no intention of withering away). And, as a consequence of how superbly fitted they are for their genetic-given role, it's obvious all those unbelievers deserve to be kicked to the curb because their ancestors were so nasty to Leonard.

edited once

The question comes to my mind is whether the current "visible" Alignment hold views that are consistent with modern Honorverse thought? If they do, then might it not be said that Leonard detweiler was proven correct in time? That the original Alpha lines that were separated from the Onion, like Harrington, truly were the heirs to Leonard Detweiler?

I find something truly satisfying at the thought of current Alpha lines discovering that particular truth. Especially, when the executors of their enemies planned resistance are their cousins who reject their current ideas, but not the ideas of their genesis.

You find something satisfying in the thought of the Graysons and Masadans all over again?