SPOILERS - UH and CtV - Raoul and Katherine

In the light of UH, I was thinking about the Alexander-Harrington kids and how they, unlike Honor, are going to be mollycoddled and raised on those effete planets, Manticore and possibly Grayson. They will never be allowed to wandering through the woods of Sphynx with only a pulsar pistol on their hip and a treecat by their side. They will never be allowed to hang glide, they will never know the joy of racing across the waters of the Sphynxian oceans in a wind driven small craft (or, probably, after CtV, a hydrojet either).
Instead Raoul, at least, is stuck with being the future Steadholder Harrington, Duke of Harrington, and Duke of White Haven, and Kathryn is stuck with being the spare for at least 1 of those, and her sibling-to-be may also be stuck that way. Now that I think about it, I cannot see any way that these children could fulfil his Celeryness's plans for them to carry on after formerly planned Honor's demise. Raoul is going to have at least 3 armsmen and a pulser armed tree cat travelling with him everywhere he goes, and Katherine is going to have her own armsman and tree cat as well. I doubt that Raoul will even be allowed to attend Saganami Island, much less serve in any of the navies he would otherwise be entitled too. I know that his father was allowed, but his father didn't have armsmen tagging along nor was he a sovereign to be. I foresee a life of luxury, running 3 major realms and stuck with politics. Poor kids.

Keith_w wrote:...I doubt that Raoul will even be allowed to attend Saganami Island, much less serve in any of the navies he would otherwise be entitled too. ...

The GSN is used to dealing with steadholders and steadholder's heirs/children; armsmen and treecats aren't going to be a problem there. Rachel Mayhew and her treecat (and presumably an armsman, given her parentage) attended Saganami Island. Abigail didn't acquire her mandatory armsman until after Saganami Island, but the RMN has learned to deal with armsmen for GSN officers. (might be interesting if Raoul or Kathryn chooses to go for an enlisted technical track rather than attending the academy.)

You may have a point about wandering the wilds of Sphinx alone, but adventuresome children have been slipping away from parental/nanny supervision since time began. It might be a bit more difficult for Raoul and Kathryn but they'll find a way of the plot requires it.

Keith_w wrote:In the light of UH, I was thinking about the Alexander-Harrington kids and how they, unlike Honor, are going to be mollycoddled and raised on those effete planets, Manticore and possibly Grayson. They will never be allowed to wandering through the woods of Sphynx with only a pulsar pistol on their hip and a treecat by their side. They will never be allowed to hang glide, they will never know the joy of racing across the waters of the Sphynxian oceans in a wind driven small craft (or, probably, after CtV, a hydrojet either).
Instead Raoul, at least, is stuck with being the future Steadholder Harrington, Duke of Harrington, and Duke of White Haven, and Kathryn is stuck with being the spare for at least 1 of those, and her sibling-to-be may also be stuck that way. Now that I think about it, I cannot see any way that these children could fulfil his Celeryness's plans for them to carry on after formerly planned Honor's demise. Raoul is going to have at least 3 armsmen and a pulser armed tree cat travelling with him everywhere he goes, and Katherine is going to have her own armsman and tree cat as well. I doubt that Raoul will even be allowed to attend Saganami Island, much less serve in any of the navies he would otherwise be entitled too. I know that his father was allowed, but his father didn't have armsmen tagging along nor was he a sovereign to be. I foresee a life of luxury, running 3 major realms and stuck with politics. Poor kids.

1)Katherine is not a spare, she is not Honor's child, except through marriage. Her sister and brother would would inherit. And that is assuming Honor and Hamish do not have another "spare". I suppose Katherine could inherit the steading, but it would face stiff opposition from the other Keys.

2) Who says any of that? Its a long tradition in Harrington Steading to head off for military service. And Honor still needs her escapes. Yes for the time being, they will be on Grayson, and yes Grayson is still trying to kill ... everybody. Hamish still has his place on Manticore and its not that far a trip to the Harrington place, especially now that Emily is not tying them to White Haven.

3) SPOILER (if needed)
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As Beth echoed Klaus Hauptmann, her sense of duty will compel her to return to the action.

pappilon wrote:

Keith_w wrote:In the light of UH, I was thinking about the Alexander-Harrington kids and how they, unlike Honor, are going to be mollycoddled and raised on those effete planets, Manticore and possibly Grayson. They will never be allowed to wandering through the woods of Sphynx with only a pulsar pistol on their hip and a treecat by their side. They will never be allowed to hang glide, they will never know the joy of racing across the waters of the Sphynxian oceans in a wind driven small craft (or, probably, after CtV, a hydrojet either).
Instead Raoul, at least, is stuck with being the future Steadholder Harrington, Duke of Harrington, and Duke of White Haven, and Kathryn is stuck with being the spare for at least 1 of those, and her sibling-to-be may also be stuck that way. Now that I think about it, I cannot see any way that these children could fulfil his Celeryness's plans for them to carry on after formerly planned Honor's demise. Raoul is going to have at least 3 armsmen and a pulser armed tree cat travelling with him everywhere he goes, and Katherine is going to have her own armsman and tree cat as well. I doubt that Raoul will even be allowed to attend Saganami Island, much less serve in any of the navies he would otherwise be entitled too. I know that his father was allowed, but his father didn't have armsmen tagging along nor was he a sovereign to be. I foresee a life of luxury, running 3 major realms and stuck with politics. Poor kids.

1)Katherine is not a spare, she is not Honor's child, except through marriage. Her sister and brother would would inherit. And that is assuming Honor and Hamish do not have another "spare". I suppose Katherine could inherit the steading, but it would face stiff opposition from the other Keys.

2) Who says any of that? Its a long tradition in Harrington Steading to head off for military service. And Honor still needs her escapes. Yes for the time being, they will be on Grayson, and yes Grayson is still trying to kill ... everybody. Hamish still has his place on Manticore and its not that far a trip to the Harrington place, especially now that Emily is not tying them to White Haven.

3) SPOILER (if needed)
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As Beth echoed Klaus Hauptmann, her sense of duty will compel her to return to the action.

The kids will be better connected to the treecats than just about anyone else. There should be no problem with their wandering around Sphynx since there'll probably be an informal honor guard of just about every treecat for them.

As for titles, Emily was related to the Queen so it's likely she some title or other. And Raoul doesn't get the titles until Honor or Hamish die and this is a prolong society. Note that Hamish was an Admiral and a noble.

Also, we've never quite known whether Grantville had children. Never been mentioned or even a wife. If not, there could be an extra title floating around.

I think Honor will move to the military sideline after this. She will be a top adviser in general, however.

Also, we can (from assorted comments from RFC over the years) assume that Raoul will go navy. Katherine might not.

Who knows?

When do we get snippets from THAT book?

pappilon wrote:1)Katherine is not a spare, she is not Honor's child, except through marriage. Her sister and brother would would inherit. And that is assuming Honor and Hamish do not have another "spare". I suppose Katherine could inherit the steading, but it would face stiff opposition from the other Keys.

Katherine is the "spare" to White Haven. Raoul is first in line to all three titles. The child Honor is carrying at the end of UH is Emily's, not hers, so is in line (second spare) only for White Haven. Harrington still needs a spare of Honor's body. Right now, the Harrington spare is Allison's second daughter.

pappilon wrote:

Keith_w wrote:In the light of UH, I was thinking about the Alexander-Harrington kids and how they, unlike Honor, are going to be mollycoddled and raised on those effete planets, Manticore and possibly Grayson. They will never be allowed to wandering through the woods of Sphynx with only a pulsar pistol on their hip and a treecat by their side. They will never be allowed to hang glide, they will never know the joy of racing across the waters of the Sphynxian oceans in a wind driven small craft (or, probably, after CtV, a hydrojet either).
Instead Raoul, at least, is stuck with being the future Steadholder Harrington, Duke of Harrington, and Duke of White Haven, and Kathryn is stuck with being the spare for at least 1 of those, and her sibling-to-be may also be stuck that way. Now that I think about it, I cannot see any way that these children could fulfil his Celeryness's plans for them to carry on after formerly planned Honor's demise. Raoul is going to have at least 3 armsmen and a pulser armed tree cat travelling with him everywhere he goes, and Katherine is going to have her own armsman and tree cat as well. I doubt that Raoul will even be allowed to attend Saganami Island, much less serve in any of the navies he would otherwise be entitled too. I know that his father was allowed, but his father didn't have armsmen tagging along nor was he a sovereign to be. I foresee a life of luxury, running 3 major realms and stuck with politics. Poor kids.

1)Katherine is not a spare, she is not Honor's child, except through marriage. Her sister and brother would would inherit. And that is assuming Honor and Hamish do not have another "spare". I suppose Katherine could inherit the steading, but it would face stiff opposition from the other Keys.

2) Who says any of that? Its a long tradition in Harrington Steading to head off for military service. And Honor still needs her escapes. Yes for the time being, they will be on Grayson, and yes Grayson is still trying to kill ... everybody. Hamish still has his place on Manticore and its not that far a trip to the Harrington place, especially now that Emily is not tying them to White Haven.

3) SPOILER (if needed)
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As Beth echoed Klaus Hauptmann, her sense of duty will compel her to return to the action.

Katherine could inherit White Haven, not Harrington Steading. She is probably second in line, behind Raoul, to be heir to the earldom of White Haven.

Don

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Fox2! wrote:Katherine is the "spare" to White Haven. Raoul is first in line to all three titles. The child Honor is carrying at the end of UH is Emily's, not hers, so is in line (second spare) only for White Haven. Harrington still needs a spare of Honor's body. Right now, the Harrington spare is Allison's second daughter.

I don't think we know how that would actually work out. Depending how they define the law... for example, I can see interesting consequences on Grayson with that "of Honor's body" tidbit, if succession laws do not adequately account for surrogacies within a female Steadholder's marriage.

That unborn child could wind up in line to the Harrington Steading, but not the Harrington Duchy. And if so, they would be the "heir secundus" despite no genetic relation to Honor and would come ahead of her next child with one of her X chromsomes.

The effects of that upon Grayson's conservatives is rather amusing to imagine.

munroburton wrote:I don't think we know how that would actually work out. Depending how they define the law... for example, I can see interesting consequences on Grayson with that "of Honor's body" tidbit, if succession laws do not adequately account for surrogacies within a female Steadholder's marriage.

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they'd quietly slipped in a few provisions dealing with this sort of thing either when they updated Grayson inheritence law to allow daughters to inherit or when it looked like Honor's death was going to create a succession crisis.

n7axw wrote:Katherine could inherit White Haven, not Harrington Steading. She is probably second in line, behind Raoul, to be heir to the earldom of White Haven.

Don

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It also matters what the inheritance mechanism is for both the Star Kingdom and Grayson.

There's a lot of assumptions that all titles would follow a Cognatic Primogeniture inheritance. That is all of the titles go to the eldest child of any gender. I think absolute cognatic is a safe assumption, that is titles in the SKM or on Grayson will ignore gender. (Agnatic-Cognatic has been more common, eg. the English crown used to followed this as did grayson, that's when the daughter inherits only after exhausting the sons).

But gavelkind succession is still very common, and how people usually do their own inheritances. That is splitting titles and properties evenly as possible between heirs.

The reason Primogeniture is well known to us today is it became more common as a way to consolidate titles. Eg. marry your heir to their heir, and suddenly Spain is united into one kingdom.

But Gavelkind has long been popular, and involves different children inheriting different heirs. In such a case, Katherine is Honor's daughter, and would be entitled to Honor's lesser titles. So Raoul would be Steadholder Harrington and Earl White Haven, Katherine would be Duchess Harrington.

It's also usually possible to disclaim titles. Such that Raoul could disclaim his Earldom to the third child.

Actually himself stated the Katherine IS the heir to
Whitehaven, and that Raoul is heir to the Duchy and Steadholding of Harrington.