(Spoiler!) What's Next for the Honorverse?(Spoiler Warning!)

PeterZ wrote:There is text that Beowulf and Hypatia will seek inclusion in the Empire of Manticore. One suspects that some of the 5 independent systems trashed by Buccaneer will also sign up. Cachalot will almost certainly.

Unless my memory's failing me, there's only evidence that a MAlign agent told his Solarian higher-up this. I don't recall any actual Beowulfian or Hypatian or Manticoran officials chiming in on the subject.

PeterZ wrote:Including the RoH, Half of Silesia, the Old Manticoran Alliance, the TQ and some portion of the seceding Core worlds as well as some portion of the newly freed protectorates and that's a long way of saying you're wrong.

The ENTIRE SKM is somewhere about 25-28 Billion people. Manticore, Talbott, etc.

There are single core world systems with over 30 billion population.

I disagree, the Queen specifically stated she did not want to become the SL. which is exactly what would happen if SEM incorporated a large chunk of the Protectorates like you suppose. For an economic standpoint it makes no sense. The SEM has to rebuild it's own space industry in addition to Beowulf's. The money just isn't there when you include the projects to update the Quadrant as well. I think the Queen it the nail on the head when she stated it would be something like the confederacy out there.

kzt wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Including the RoH, Half of Silesia, the Old Manticoran Alliance, the TQ and some portion of the seceding Core worlds as well as some portion of the newly freed protectorates and that's a long way of saying you're wrong.

The ENTIRE SKM is somewhere about 25-28 Billion people. Manticore, Talbott, etc.

There are single core world systems with over 30 billion population.

What are you smoking? The SEM has 20-ish worlds in Silesia, 17 in Talbot and then the SKM. that's 40-Ish world. I recall the average population in the Fringe is 2 billion. That places the population of the SEM at 40ish billion. Correction 80-ish million assuming Silesia contributes a higher than average population, where Talbott is lower than average. The assumption is supported by the volume of trade the SEM has with the star nation.

Now toss is the planned inclusion of the RoH in a new federated polity, Beowulf and Hypatia has indicated interest in joining the SEM. That suggests a massive increase in the population of what was the SEM at the end UH.

drothgery wrote:

PeterZ wrote:There is text that Beowulf and Hypatia will seek inclusion in the Empire of Manticore. One suspects that some of the 5 independent systems trashed by Buccaneer will also sign up. Cachalot will almost certainly.

Unless my memory's failing me, there's only evidence that a MAlign agent told his Solarian higher-up this. I don't recall any actual Beowulfian or Hypatian or Manticoran officials chiming in on the subject.

Indeed. Kolokolstov stated it as a rumor associated with Hypatia's announcement of a merger with Beowulf. Might not be a definite plan but one suspects some thought is being applied within Beowulf in that direction. That QE III is interested in combining with the RoH suggests she would be open to Beowulf joining.

Talbott was stated to have about 20 billion people. I doubt lynx is huge.

ywing14 wrote:I disagree, the Queen specifically stated she did not want to become the SL. which is exactly what would happen if SEM incorporated a large chunk of the Protectorates like you suppose. For an economic standpoint it makes no sense. The SEM has to rebuild it's own space industry in addition to Beowulf's. The money just isn't there when you include the projects to update the Quadrant as well. I think the Queen it the nail on the head when she stated it would be something like the confederacy out there.

The Aueen also fixed the Solarian League's funding limitations. The new League will contain the majority or close to it the majority of former SL member systems. Unless the SEM is large enough to give the New SL pause, there may be enough support to build a powerful enough navy to take out the SEM.

It's not enough to absorb the RoH. Manticore has to encourage enough new worlds to join them in either an Alliance or as an integral part of the Empire.

Economically, they need to grow to be able to support the new demands of their navy. The Queen plans on maintaining their currently large wartime navy. What will they need it for? They'll need it for the MAlign and whoever else the MAlign signs up. Without knowing how big the MAlign will become when they are ready to reveal themselves, the SEM has an incentive to signup ex-Protectorates and help them grow into productive contributors to their combined defense.

As we saw in Chetobor, most of these systems have the infrastructure to bootstrap industrial growth. That equipment is simply owned by SL multistellars. Freeing the Protectorates from rapacious multistellars will let the majority of these systems reinvest that production into economic growth. Investment will speed up the process, but is not essential to it.

As for becoming OFS, the SEM won't be forcing anyone into joining them. Those that request admission have to adopt laws consistent with the SEM constitution. So long as the SEM has the egalitarian RoH around, they are far less likely to turn conquistador.

kzt wrote:Talbott was stated to have about 20 billion people. I doubt lynx is huge.

Silesia is.

PeterZ wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I disagree, the Queen specifically stated she did not want to become the SL. which is exactly what would happen if SEM incorporated a large chunk of the Protectorates like you suppose. For an economic standpoint it makes no sense. The SEM has to rebuild it's own space industry in addition to Beowulf's. The money just isn't there when you include the projects to update the Quadrant as well. I think the Queen it the nail on the head when she stated it would be something like the confederacy out there.

The Aueen also fixed the Solarian League's funding limitations. The new League will contain the majority or close to it the majority of former SL member systems. Unless the SEM is large enough to give the New SL pause, there may be enough support to build a powerful enough navy to take out the SEM.

It's not enough to absorb the RoH. Manticore has to encourage enough new worlds to join them in either an Alliance or as an integral part of the Empire.

Economically, they need to grow to be able to support the new demands of their navy. The Queen plans on maintaining their currently large wartime navy. What will they need it for? They'll need it for the MAlign and whoever else the MAlign signs up. Without knowing how big the MAlign will become when they are ready to reveal themselves, the SEM has an incentive to signup ex-Protectorates and help them grow into productive contributors to their combined defense.

As we saw in Chetobor, most of these systems have the infrastructure to bootstrap industrial growth. That equipment is simply owned by SL multistellars. Freeing the Protectorates from rapacious multistellars will let the majority of these systems reinvest that production into economic growth. Investment will speed up the process, but is not essential to it.

As for becoming OFS, the SEM won't be forcing anyone into joining them. Those that request admission have to adopt laws consistent with the SEM constitution. So long as the SEM has the egalitarian RoH around, they are far less likely to turn conquistador.

Again I disagree with you Peter. I'm not sure where you got your facts about the Queen fixing the SL's funding issues. The Grand Alliance's primary goal in the new constitutional convention was to have the SL change it's system so its leaders were elected. There was no information indicating federal taxation. Additionally an end to the Frontier Security and Protectorates. We don't know how many Core Worlds, Shell Worlds, or Protectorates are going to stay in the SL even with reform. We may still have large breakaways like the RF or the MAR. Is it possible a resurgent SL could return, yes. I think it is unlikely.

The SEM does not need new worlds to join. Its got the worlds in the confederacy that will likely join, the Quadrant, and if all things go through the Haven Republic. That'll put it pretty damn close to 100 worlds. Additionally, now that there is actually a peace it doesn't make sense for Manticore to incorporate other worlds. Especially when we have no idea where they all lay. For all we know there could be other worlds that don't want to join in between them that'll make security arrangements difficult. Manticore needs to for strong economic ties and military alliances with these worlds yes. Similar to what happened with Marsh and Grayson. But it doesn't need to incorporate anymore worlds.

Queen stated the opposite about maintaining a large wartime fleet. The RMN is going to go into a build down phase so it can spend money on rebuilding itself. It's part of the reason she and Pritchard are looking into the reciprocal citizenship so they can maintain a large fleet between the two of them.

Yes, Chetobor was able to nationalize its transtellars equipment, but not every world is going to be that lucky. Many of the worlds will still have dictatorships in place. We only know of a few successful revolutions. There is no way to know how many there will be. Or how effective new governments will be. You've got worlds who've had little self governance for centuries. Now all of the sudden you expect them to drop what they are doing, sign up with the SEM, and build warships to fight the Alignment. Most Worlds are never going to believe all of that. There is simply no reason to incorporate more worlds in the immediate future. As time goes on, sure. But I don't see that happening for a while.

PeterZ wrote:

kzt wrote:Talbott was stated to have about 20 billion people. I doubt lynx is huge.

Silesia is.

Not part of the SEM.