In regards to the conflict with the Solarian League

JohnRoth wrote:The GA has decided not to attack Sol directly, for the reason that Potato stated: there is too much possibility that it will cause the SL planets to fall in line behind the Mandarins instead of causing the League to fragment. This is Word of God (i.e. the Author).

From what RFC has said, and from the snippets posted so far, that situation is going to change radically in Uncompromising Honor because Operation Buccaneer is going to violate the Eradani Edict and the Deneb Accords wholesale.

That, in turn, will change the political situation to where Grand Fleet can attack Sol and expect the repercussions to be positive.

Yeah but the GA's overall plan doesn't bother anyone else? Sure, the Mandarins and League are showcased to be hopelessly corrupt (One could honestly say stupidly corrupt considering the overall size and scope of their dominions) but the Shell and the Verge are both shown to be vassal states or outright owned by Transtellars. Fracturing the oldest galactic body in existence will only empower those same Transtellars as they become the overall force of stability.

It seems very...optimistic...to believe taking a sledgehammer to the League will lead to anything good. I'm think the Silesian Confederacy writ large.

Rust wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:The GA has decided not to attack Sol directly, for the reason that Potato stated: there is too much possibility that it will cause the SL planets to fall in line behind the Mandarins instead of causing the League to fragment. This is Word of God (i.e. the Author).

From what RFC has said, and from the snippets posted so far, that situation is going to change radically in Uncompromising Honor because Operation Buccaneer is going to violate the Eradani Edict and the Deneb Accords wholesale.

That, in turn, will change the political situation to where Grand Fleet can attack Sol and expect the repercussions to be positive.

Yeah but the GA's overall plan doesn't bother anyone else? Sure, the Mandarins and League are showcased to be hopelessly corrupt (One could honestly say stupidly corrupt considering the overall size and scope of their dominions) but the Shell and the Verge are both shown to be vassal states or outright owned by Transtellars. Fracturing the oldest galactic body in existence will only empower those same Transtellars as they become the overall force of stability.

It seems very...optimistic...to believe taking a sledgehammer to the League will lead to anything good. I'm think the Silesian Confederacy writ large.

Probably not the Confederacy writ large. The rot is mostly in the League bureaucracy and doesn't filter down to the planetary level. Many of the core worlds are wealthy and successful. You don't get that without good governance. OFS antics in the Shell and the Verge are only a distant reality for these systems, well beyond the circle of their interest and concern. That is why the OFS and the other League bureaucrats get away with it. Distance and lack of interest insulates them from what is really going on.

Don

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Rust wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:The GA has decided not to attack Sol directly, for the reason that Potato stated: there is too much possibility that it will cause the SL planets to fall in line behind the Mandarins instead of causing the League to fragment. This is Word of God (i.e. the Author).

From what RFC has said, and from the snippets posted so far, that situation is going to change radically in Uncompromising Honor because Operation Buccaneer is going to violate the Eradani Edict and the Deneb Accords wholesale.

That, in turn, will change the political situation to where Grand Fleet can attack Sol and expect the repercussions to be positive.

Yeah but the GA's overall plan doesn't bother anyone else? Sure, the Mandarins and League are showcased to be hopelessly corrupt (One could honestly say stupidly corrupt considering the overall size and scope of their dominions) but the Shell and the Verge are both shown to be vassal states or outright owned by Transtellars. Fracturing the oldest galactic body in existence will only empower those same Transtellars as they become the overall force of stability.

It seems very...optimistic...to believe taking a sledgehammer to the League will lead to anything good. I'm think the Silesian Confederacy writ large.

Yes but, if the slaves revolt now, their capitalist overlords can cry to John Wayne and wait for the 6th Cavalry, in the form of Intervention Battalions, to come riding over the hyper limit on FF ships.

Take away the Intervention Battalions and the FF, its a different ball game. Not to mention all those pesky GA warship captains and crews just looking to enrich their financial status by knocking off a few SLMM freighters.

Now we got [former] SL transtellars looking for allies. Whole different ball game. And yet, somehow all that chaos is exactly what the Detweillers and Renaissance Factor are expecting, yea even counting on. As Barregos stated: its gonna get really ugly, I have to be the biggest, meanest warlord around to protect my citizens from the other warlords that are sure to crop up.

pappilon"[quote="JohnRoth wrote:The GA has decided not to attack Sol directly, for the reason that Potato stated: there is too much possibility that it will cause the SL planets to fall in line behind the Mandarins instead of causing the League to fragment. This is Word of God (i.e. the Author).

From what RFC has said, and from the snippets posted so far, that situation is going to change radically in Uncompromising Honor because Operation Buccaneer is going to violate the Eradani Edict and the Deneb Accords wholesale.

That, in turn, will change the political situation to where Grand Fleet can attack Sol and expect the repercussions to be positive.

Yeah but the GA's overall plan doesn't bother anyone else? Sure, the Mandarins and League are showcased to be hopelessly corrupt (One could honestly say stupidly corrupt considering the overall size and scope of their dominions) but the Shell and the Verge are both shown to be vassal states or outright owned by Transtellars. Fracturing the oldest galactic body in existence will only empower those same Transtellars as they become the overall force of stability.

It seems very...optimistic...to believe taking a sledgehammer to the League will lead to anything good. I'm think the Silesian Confederacy writ large.[/quote]

Yes but, if the slaves revolt now, their capitalist overlords can cry to John Wayne and wait for the 6th Cavalry, in the form of Intervention Battalions, to come riding over the hyper limit on FF ships.

Take away the Intervention Battalions and the FF, its a different ball game. Not to mention all those pesky GA warship captains and crews just looking to enrich their financial status by knocking off a few SLMM freighters.

Now we got [former] SL transtellars looking for allies. Whole different ball game. And yet, somehow all that chaos is exactly what the Detweillers and Renaissance Factor are expecting, yea even counting on. As Barregos stated: its gonna get really ugly, I have to be the biggest, meanest warlord around to protect my citizens from the other warlords that are sure to crop up.[/quote]


A lot of things change in war. A major attack on Beowulf with massive casualties would change the balance. At that point, why should the GA simple trim the Mandarin's finger and toe nails?

With an Eridani violation to answer for, the Mandarins have exposed themselves to direct vengeance. Want to bet that people in the GA will find out about the plans? If the fleet that did it is captured, there will be documents there. And the admiral in charge has to know that if he/she destroys them, it is all over. Show an obedience to orders and the anger will be somewhat redirected.

I doubt that many planets will fall behind Terra. Remember that the vast majority of people throughout the League have never been on Terra. Most are more than a few generations away.

For a direct violation of a member/former member, the Mandarins have spit on the Constitution, lame as that document is.

There have been a lot of intermarriages between Manticore and Beowulf...not to mention Beowulf with more than a few other planets.

I forsee major problems for the Mandarins.

Breaking the League is the intent of the Alignment. They have the RF set up to pick up the piece- some of the pieces- in 12 very differnt batches before ultimatly merging into the RF.

That presumes the Alignment wants the RF to become an entity. They may not and that may also have been part of the plan (shared with the RF leadership) that the RF itself will be multiple smaller entities (the 12) and not overtly get involved with warfare with each other but more along the lines of various trade agreements.

That keeps things like Haven and Manticore from having fat, loud targets. There are "smaller" conglomerations of former League Systems and former Independent Systems that gather together for protection and stability.

The whole Shell and Verge stage is part of that. What Harlap was doing with the OFS plan fit well, and was probably instigated by the Alignment. How many ways does it fit the Detweiler Plan. Lets see, they are taking advantage of blaming Manticore and trying to destroy it's reputaion BUT the core of the plan was to 1) support and boost revolutions or coups in those systems out on and beyond the Frontier. 2) Distract the League and particularly FF and BF from other things. It really doesn't matter if the revolutions suceed or not because it creates havoc in the Verge and ties down FF. All that "legitimate" use of force is a lot more really bad karma for OFS/FF. The Transstellars involved are going to suffer losses either way. Their clients and/or puppet governments may or may not survive. The damage to the Transtellar assets and staff can be significant. The revolts are going to (not may, going to) have massive economic impact and damage to the individual systems, the local trading area, the portions of the League tied to it (OFS, the merchants, the supply chains, the economic interdependence) and the Transtellars plus all the shipping involved --and the financial end of this- banking and finance.
The more you generate chaos and damage the economic engine of the League and all the pieces of it (Transtellars, shipping, manufactures, non-League clients) the worse it gets for the League and the more the fragments need to put together ways to survive and reestablish some level of economic stability.....hence the RF and other things outside the League.

In the long run, the Alignment expects to be firmly holding the reigns of everything and indoctrinating the survivors (and their decedents) in the beliefs and absolute control of the Alignment. They don't have to actual appear at all- like Albrect and the inner layer of the Onion....control. Its all about control.

Rust wrote:Yeah but the GA's overall plan doesn't bother anyone else?

Brigade XO wrote:Breaking the League is the intent of the Alignment. They have the RF set up to pick up the piece- some of the pieces- in 12 very differnt batches before ultimatly merging into the RF.

That presumes the Alignment wants the RF to become an entity. They may not and that may also have been part of the plan (shared with the RF leadership) that the RF itself will be multiple smaller entities (the 12) and not overtly get involved with warfare with each other but more along the lines of various trade agreements.

That keeps things like Haven and Manticore from having fat, loud targets. There are "smaller" conglomerations of former League Systems and former Independent Systems that gather together for protection and stability.

The whole Shell and Verge stage is part of that. What Harlap was doing with the OFS plan fit well, and was probably instigated by the Alignment. How many ways does it fit the Detweiler Plan. Lets see, they are taking advantage of blaming Manticore and trying to destroy it's reputaion BUT the core of the plan was to 1) support and boost revolutions or coups in those systems out on and beyond the Frontier. 2) Distract the League and particularly FF and BF from other things. It really doesn't matter if the revolutions suceed or not because it creates havoc in the Verge and ties down FF. All that "legitimate" use of force is a lot more really bad karma for OFS/FF. The Transstellars involved are going to suffer losses either way. Their clients and/or puppet governments may or may not survive. The damage to the Transtellar assets and staff can be significant. The revolts are going to (not may, going to) have massive economic impact and damage to the individual systems, the local trading area, the portions of the League tied to it (OFS, the merchants, the supply chains, the economic interdependence) and the Transtellars plus all the shipping involved --and the financial end of this- banking and finance.
The more you generate chaos and damage the economic engine of the League and all the pieces of it (Transtellars, shipping, manufactures, non-League clients) the worse it gets for the League and the more the fragments need to put together ways to survive and reestablish some level of economic stability.....hence the RF and other things outside the League.

In the long run, the Alignment expects to be firmly holding the reigns of everything and indoctrinating the survivors (and their decedents) in the beliefs and absolute control of the Alignment. They don't have to actual appear at all- like Albrect and the inner layer of the Onion....control. Its all about control.

Breaking the league is also the plan of the GA, Surviving the really nasty breakup of the league while protecting the several worlds that comprise The Maya Sector, which Oraville Barregos and his FF admiral Luiz Rozak can clearly see coming, is the entire point of Operation Sepoy.

Much like the Rembrandt Trade Association in the Spindle system, Barregos now has a wider pallette to paint from, given his (1) overt alliance with Torch which led him to (2) more covert alliances with Erewhon and through them the restored R o Haven, and finally the GA brings Manticore into play.

Yes apparently all of us readers and all of the main players on the board see the breakup as cataclysmic if not merely catastropic and are planning to use it to their own advantage, as much as possible. The fat and Happy core and shell worlds are the background of the story, and yes, they are starting to get the first bands of tropical storms leading the approaching megahurricaine approaching.

The Mandarins are looking the approaching storm down the wrong nd of the barrel. They know that will happen and they are frantically trying to dodge that bullet. Yeah, I know I'm really pulling Spoonerisms of my metaphores her.

Rust wrote:Just wrapped up Shadow of Victory and the final chapters that involve Henke and Tourville turning up in Mesa with over 50 Wallers and hundreds of other ships...

Why didn't they simply head to Sol and end the conflict with the Solarian League?

I mean, I get it from the story perspective. If Mike didn't turn up in Mesa, Zilwiki, Cachet, and the rest would have been killed.

But at this point it's painfully obvious there's nothing in the Solarian inventory that can stand up to anything in Manticore's arsenal, and Oyster Bay left a gaping hole in their war capability. With the League already hitting the Alliance's home system...it makes little sense to me why the Empress wouldn't be roaring into the cradle of mankind, seizing the orbital infrastructure, and forcing the Mandarins to sign on the dotted line.

Throughout the series it's hammered that the League is vast and with enough time, the tech imbalance will smooth out and how the Alliance has to be swift and deal a knockout blow as fast as possible. Yet the last several books have seen the Empire skittering around the fringes of the Verge stepping on the Alignment's brushfires while picking off piecemeal Frontier Fleet divisions in a contradiction to their stated war goal aims.

I get that Mesa is home to the Alignment and they are the true enemy, but several characters remark about not wanting to kill the SLN in job lots. Yet nobody is actually talking about punching the League in the throat.

Manticore holds the economic leverage over the League, and they can use that leverage to break the League and the worst of the Transtellars, so it can't be fear that seizing Sol will somehow galvanize the League into cohesion. And the best way to avoid having to kill everything in the SLN's inventory would be to get the Mandarins to sign on the dotted line as quickly as possible. Send in a few divisions of Destroyers to blow up the Reserve (Not that that wouldn't simply be a waste of ammunition, considering but the psychological blow would also break the League)...

It just feels like this war could have been dealt with several books ago and left the Alliance more free to deal with the real threat of the Alignment.

There is nothing to say that heading to Earth would end the war. What do you do if the Solarian League refuses to surrender? Orbital Bombardment? Land Marines? At the end of the day even if they take the planet at that point they still look like the group who took Earth. You'd provide a rally cry for the rest of the League to try and take earth back. Additionally, for lack of a better tern you'd "drain the swamp". By eliminating Earth and much of the Solarian leadership you'd create a vacuum into which much more competent individuals may rise.

ywing14 wrote:

Rust wrote:Just wrapped up Shadow of Victory and the final chapters that involve Henke and Tourville turning up in Mesa with over 50 Wallers and hundreds of other ships...

Why didn't they simply head to Sol and end the conflict with the Solarian League?

I mean, I get it from the story perspective. If Mike didn't turn up in Mesa, Zilwiki, Cachet, and the rest would have been killed.

But at this point it's painfully obvious there's nothing in the Solarian inventory that can stand up to anything in Manticore's arsenal, and Oyster Bay left a gaping hole in their war capability. With the League already hitting the Alliance's home system...it makes little sense to me why the Empress wouldn't be roaring into the cradle of mankind, seizing the orbital infrastructure, and forcing the Mandarins to sign on the dotted line.

Throughout the series it's hammered that the League is vast and with enough time, the tech imbalance will smooth out and how the Alliance has to be swift and deal a knockout blow as fast as possible. Yet the last several books have seen the Empire skittering around the fringes of the Verge stepping on the Alignment's brushfires while picking off piecemeal Frontier Fleet divisions in a contradiction to their stated war goal aims.

I get that Mesa is home to the Alignment and they are the true enemy, but several characters remark about not wanting to kill the SLN in job lots. Yet nobody is actually talking about punching the League in the throat.

Manticore holds the economic leverage over the League, and they can use that leverage to break the League and the worst of the Transtellars, so it can't be fear that seizing Sol will somehow galvanize the League into cohesion. And the best way to avoid having to kill everything in the SLN's inventory would be to get the Mandarins to sign on the dotted line as quickly as possible. Send in a few divisions of Destroyers to blow up the Reserve (Not that that wouldn't simply be a waste of ammunition, considering but the psychological blow would also break the League)...

It just feels like this war could have been dealt with several books ago and left the Alliance more free to deal with the real threat of the Alignment.

There is nothing to say that heading to Earth would end the war. What do you do if the Solarian League refuses to surrender? Orbital Bombardment? Land Marines? At the end of the day even if they take the planet at that point they still look like the group who took Earth. You'd provide a rally cry for the rest of the League to try and take earth back. Additionally, for lack of a better tern you'd "drain the swamp". By eliminating Earth and much of the Solarian leadership you'd create a vacuum into which much more competent individuals may rise.

After an Eridani violation, the Mandarins won't be looking so good to ANYONE. Also, people on most planets are not going to be all that sentimental about earth. A real lot of the planets in the League were forced in.

And the GA does not have to destroy Earth. They can simply wipe out all orbital platforms in the solar system. Effectively Earth will be cut off from the rest of the galaxy.

A lot of people on planets will not like the GA. But it won't really matter.

ldwechsler wrote:A lot of people on planets will not like the GA. But it won't really matter.

Yeah, it does matter.

The GA can easily win every battle and still lose the war -- or at least lose the "peace." That was the whole point behind the "Harrington Doctrine," Manticore, then, and the GA, now, can't afford to alienate any successor states, and they absolutely cannot cause the League to pull together and patch over the fracture lines the "Harrington Doctrine" depends on.

Enforcing the Epsilon Eridani Edict against the Mandarins just might accelerate the breakup of the League, but it does run the risk of alienating systems that think enforcing the Edict is solely the job of the SLN, even if it is the SLN violating it.

Weird Harold wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:A lot of people on planets will not like the GA. But it won't really matter.

Yeah, it does matter.

The GA can easily win every battle and still lose the war -- or at least lose the "peace." That was the whole point behind the "Harrington Doctrine," Manticore, then, and the GA, now, can't afford to alienate any successor states, and they absolutely cannot cause the League to pull together and patch over the fracture lines the "Harrington Doctrine" depends on.

Enforcing the Epsilon Eridani Edict against the Mandarins just might accelerate the breakup of the League, but it does run the risk of alienating systems that think enforcing the Edict is solely the job of the SLN, even if it is the SLN violating it.

Possibly. But I suspect that the violation of the Eridani Edict will shatter the sense among many systems that the League does the right thing. Whatever sense of loyalty they may have felt toward the League could go right out the window. It would be like the League was out neo-barbing the neobarbs. Bear in mind that many of the core worlds have been insulated from what the OFS has been up to in the Verge for a long time. So coming to grips with reality of the matter could administer a real shock. An Edict violation against a member world would not go over well.

Don

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