Detweiler and Sons

n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:
Evil is normal unto evil. Darkness is normal unto darkness.

Yet, how can evil be sane?

Evil's difficulty is not a lack of rationality. In fact you can have something evil which is profoundly rational because the difficulty is deeper than that. The Detweilers' issue has to do with a moral compass that is profoundly warped in that it has reshaped morality into something that excludes "normals" from its sense of obligation and concern.

What I am describing here is far more common than one might think. It rears its ugly head any time you have any group of people exhibit what we might call tribalism. That is illustrated by the fact that most primative peoples name for itself is in its own language is "the people." The implication here is that outsiders are on some level subhuman. For such folk, no obligation exists outside of the tribe. Within the tribe, they can laugh, love, exhibit kindness, and act as normal, healthy human beings. But outside of the tribe those obligations do not exist.

The Mesa genetically modified lines are like that. Anyone who participates in the uplift of the race is human among whom normal human relationships might exist. Outsiders are only tools to serve their end and who are ultimately destined for oblivion. There is no obligation toward such. We might refer to the Detweilers as the ultimate true believers whose commtiment to their vision and their determination to bring that vision to pass by any and all available means qualifies them as fanatics.

Look around. There is far too much of this sort of thing going on around us in our own reality and at this moment in time is causing us all sorts of trouble. It is far more common than you think and has ensnared lots of people who are otherwise decent human beings.

Don

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Pardon my bold to call attention.


Not sure I can agree.

It is a lack of a moral compass. When lacking a moral compass, how can one be rational? Hence, America's treatment of blacks. Hitler's treatment of Jews, etc. The difference then is that the evil was not inherent within. There were those who opposed, being led by a moral compass, which broke the bonds of evil.

The Detweiler's changed the genetic code of man, altering him from the inherent good that is now found within mankind -- who went from being descended from the flesh (Adam) to being descended from Jesus. Detweiler erased thousands of years of spiritual evolution putting mankind back to being descended from flesh. The evil now begets evil. The evil has become incestuously inherent.

Fanaticism without a moral compass is evil. Without a compass one has no bearing on right and wrong, up or down, left or right.

America became great because "In God We Trust." When man trusts himself only, man becomes lost.

When we strive to become gods, we fail miserably at being men, and fail hopelessly at being gods.

cthia wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:So if male clones and female clones who are all from the same "donor" individual were to have children together, you don't think that would be considered Incest? We, this is the Detweilers we are talking about and centuries of tinkering with the human genome so, from the stand point of the Alighment, the child would "just" be another experiment.

On the other hand, if you have the ability to clone an individual and make both male and female copies---you are probably going to start running into any number of potential genetic problems, at a higher rate than if you had "normal" brothers and sisters having children together. Would depend greatly on what was done to the embryo to identify and correct problems.

Is it possible that Albrect already had a contingency plan in-place for order of succession? Sure,it's possible. It is also possible that whomever of the cloned "sons"s is listed as the new Alpha-1 is going to have to drop a bunch of direct control and oversight in their own former area of specilization to pick the responsibility of being in overall control and guidence.
It is also possible that the Long Range Planning Board already made some modifications to the several clones to "enhance" various of their gene mix to make them a better (more effieicnet and effective) in the particular area they were expected to specialze in. They would have also PROBABLY have had the same general schooling and indroctrination in the Alighment AND in the Detweiler "family structure".

We may or may not ever get the detail background.

You misunderstood me, and I must assume the entire blame for the disconnect born of getting the cart before the horse. I failed to mention that if Evelina does turn out to have daughters, that I cannot see Albrecht as having donatated any DNA for the cause. Albrecht strikes me as being a megalomaniacal sexist of a Dr. Frankenstein wanting to get the ingredients exactly right this time. No incompatible female parts. I don't think he feels that a daughter could, much less would, be intellectually up to the task. And I can't see him condoning, what he feels would be, an inferior female clone. Certainly related to the same reasons that I don't think he'd want Evelina to carry the sons naturally.

My sentiment comes from the phrase "Imbibed with mother's milk."

To Detweiler, the offspring would be sucking hind teat.

Weird Harold wrote:

Garth 2 wrote:One of the consequences of Houdini that doesn't seem to have been discussed, is the death of Albrecht Detweiler on Mesa, and the consequences for the leadership of the Alignment.
It's fairly clear that prior to Albrecht Detweiler, that Detweiler "family unit" was (probably) only a single child pre-generation and therefore the transfer of leadership was clear cut but Albrecht Detweiler had three sons and therefore I'm wondering:...

1: There were Six sons, not three. They were named earlier in this thread, but I have trouble remembering my own name sometimes.

2: As far as 99% of the Onion is concerned, the leader of the MAlign is "Alpha One." Benjamin, Albrecht's "number one son", can simply issue orders as "Alpha One" and very few will know the difference.

3: The general assumption is that the succession of "Alpha One" would go in alphabetical order -- Benjamin, then Colin, and so on down to Gervais. Each of the sons (clones, actually) had responsibility for a specific area of the MAlign -- Admin, R&D, Security/Espionage, etc. IIRC, there is Textev for all of their areas of responsibility.

4: I don't think that the Renaissance Factor will be materially disrupted by Albrecht's death. The leaders of the RF did know Albrecht and at least some of his sons, but they should be satisfied with the Succession as long as the sons stay in control. If the Detweiler line is eliminated -- i.e. all six sons and their progeny are eliminated somehow -- then the RF might fragment or fall to some internal power struggle. As long as there is a Detweiler to succeed to "Alpha One," even if it takes a regency council, the RF will proceed according to the master plan.

Theemile wrote:Even if every Detweiller dies, they are clones of the Detweiller lineage. You can't tell me that there isn't a backup or 7 in labs somewhere. True believers could grow a new Hitle.... I mean Detweiller at will, at any time. Heck, there could be another fetus in stasis, ready to go if needed. The question would be who indoctrinat....I mean raises the child to be the new leader. The inducing power structure over who raises and influences the new Detweiller will probably be the biggest power struggle if the remaining Detweilers were eliminated.

Yet, if every Detweiler dies, won't the vision become hopelessly diluted? Racism is taught, not imbibed with mother's milk or daddy's genes.

Who will teach the new Detties, indeed?

Surely one cannot think, that 7 new Detweilers born alone into space, objects acting without a proper outside influence, would automatically assume a course against all of mankind who are not Malign.

It is what the Manticorans face with the destruction of the space stations, losing many of the experts on building ships. With the single highly-expert Malignant gone, there are going to be many kinks in the indoctrinating schematics of the new designs, possible fatal flaws. Whoever mans err Maligns up, will certainly need to be an Alpha, squawking the transponder code from the inner Onion. The LRPB would seem to be inherent and intuitive natural dissenters from the original vision, at heart. Contained within them is too much inherent potential magnified by the same deviation in the design as such an innate conflict of interest implies. The LRPB would be loyal to themselves, the company of the LRPB, not to the visions of the visionary, the original founder, CEO. As oftentimes becomes obvious as owners of companies die and his "pure" vision dies with him. The people left to take over become loyal to the board and the profit, not to the plan. Conflict of interest always arises when someone else drives. One wanting to take a more scenic route. Thus possibly exposing the plan and the Malign too precipitously.

JohnRoth wrote:

jgnfld wrote:Then there is the notion of the subordinate Detweiler clones happily working away in their little niches decade after decade after decade while Albrecht exercises supreme control. Imagine this with Mao clones or Stalin clones. Absolutely unstable.

...

At a bare minimum the ruling clique would be periodically overturned due to factional infighting.

What causes intrigue and infighting, or at least what allows it to rise to the level that it's going to cause problems?

Two things: Ambition and independent power bases. Notice that Albrecht isn't known to the average Mesan. People don't see him on the street and kowtow; there's no parade of black limousines with armed outriders to amaze the adoring masses. The price he pays is absolute anonymity: the only thing that most of his minions know him by is "Alpha One." He has more anonymity than even "Helmuth, speaking for Boskone."

Everyone is subject to psychological evaluation, and discipline, often fatal, is swift and ruthless for anyone in the inner Onion that gets out of line. This is known and accepted.

People are put into jobs because they're fitted for them, not because they've clawed their way up the ladder to their level of incompetence, leaving bloody and broken bodies behind them. (See the Klingon version of the Peter Principle).

People who would be capable of intrigue and infighting have a noted tendency to die in aircar accidents.

It's a very different mindset, and one that most people in our culture would find incomprehensible. Large segments of our population would also find it intolerable.

Personally, I find the idea of aircar accidents harder to accept.

Pardon my bold to call attention.

There is at least a third factor. Ignorance. Ignorance of the true vision. Ignorance of history. Black history month is meant to keep the new generation of blacks mindful of whence they came. Knowing where you are is dependent on knowing where you've been. Knowing where you're going is dependent on knowing where you are. With each generation, the malignant truth is watered down. Especially since generations are very long variables.

Leonard Detweiler is the instigator of the original pep rally to rile the natives against a monumental game to be played in the very far future. Each generation, though closer to the endgame, becomes more removed from the original rally, possibly losing the original pep and enthusiasm.

It is the natural human element of the same sentiment that sparks the notion "We must move quickly to take advantage of the power of their patriotism. The powerful emotions of the moment."

Advertising works that way. Sales and manufacturing works that way. Cereal companies immediately put Michael Phelps on the front of their cereal boxes while the excitement and memory of his accomplishments is still fresh. Human nature's attention span is short and easily distracted.

aairfccha wrote:

jgnfld wrote:Well I'll buy it to read about, but I don't for a minute accept the premise as remotely possible. Intrigue and infighting within and across lines would rip such an organization apart within a century or two at max. More likely within decades.

At a bare minimum the ruling clique would be periodically overturned due to factional infighting.

You forget about a quite crucial uniting factor, they have a common enemy: a (perceived as) important part of the Beowulf Code (and by extension the galactic establishment representing it).

That is a wild card isn't it? Each new generation is further removed from the actual "truth of the Malign," counting merely on indoctrination. The current generations of blacks don't carry the same racial indoctrination against "The white devil" that older generations did. They interact and see white america for itself. They see the truth and even marry into the race.

Many of my black friends are angry because of statements like "They didn't do anything to me, they did it to my forefathers. And the ones who did it are dead."

The Beowulf code is not against them, per se, but against that which created them. Any of the MAlign would certainly be free to join "humanity" and adopt a healthy perspective on things. There will be at least one, I assure you. Or rather more, Simoes.

Some - a lot of actualy- of the business going on today with the blame and wanting to "correct" things (normaly involving some sort of "compensation" (money, power, control, status, victimhood so many more) with people being at the forefront of each particular segment of that.

There is also the screaming about the THEM agains US and our rightfull (posession of land, political power, wealth, dominant controls of something, again, pick something) and often hypocritical accusations and blaming of THEM with what US is now doing to THEM.

Daemonize them, call them less than human (compaired to US), blame them for all the problems, including the ones US was and is doing to others.

The UN and so many countries screaming (or using diplomatic-speak) when the people screaming have so much blood dripping off their hands there is a yard wide path of blood and slime behind everywhere they have walked in the last 50 years.

THEM....they did it, THEY are not right, THEY caused the problem (by existing).

Detweillers, enh.... must more of the same. The new, self made superior humans who are owed the place they are going to make with the blood and mangled flesh of those lesser so called Normal humand who are now little better than animals, tools and matreials to experiment on in the climb to glory.....controled, of course, by the Alpha StarLines who are and will always continue to be at the leading edge of greatness. Just ask any Alpha.

Brigade XO wrote:Some - a lot of actualy- of the business going on today with the blame and wanting to "correct" things (normaly involving some sort of "compensation" (money, power, control, status, victimhood so many more) with people being at the forefront of each particular segment of that.

There is also the screaming about the THEM agains US and our rightfull (posession of land, political power, wealth, dominant controls of something, again, pick something) and often hypocritical accusations and blaming of THEM with what US is now doing to THEM.

Daemonize them, call them less than human (compaired to US), blame them for all the problems, including the ones US was and is doing to others.

The UN and so many countries screaming (or using diplomatic-speak) when the people screaming have so much blood dripping off their hands there is a yard wide path of blood and slime behind everywhere they have walked in the last 50 years.

THEM....they did it, THEY are not right, THEY caused the problem (by existing).

Detweillers, enh.... must more of the same. The new, self made superior humans who are owed the place they are going to make with the blood and mangled flesh of those lesser so called Normal humand who are now little better than animals, tools and matreials to experiment on in the climb to glory.....controled, of course, by the Alpha StarLines who are and will always continue to be at the leading edge of greatness. Just ask any Alpha.

Yes they seem to have gone beyond the genegeneering of the native population of Darius. which, I think was the whole point of Lenny D's plan. Of course with a good and generous helping of righteous indignation against the stifling of legitimate scientific experimentation.

Now it is isolate THEM, and flay them with our greatness, then pour salt in the open wounds, then nuke 'em into oblivion. The fact that their great show piece is still considered a slave race merely points to the degeneration of the (I'm granting them original nobility of purpose and motives) [Lenny] Detweiller Plan.

Hi cthia,

I'm not sure we are really disagreeing. There are all sorts of valid ways to put this together. But for me, morality, that is our sense of right and wrong, is something to which we cling "come hell or high water," as my dad would put it. It is separate from rationalty which is the processes of the mind which seek to make sense out of the world and to achieve whatever ends toward which one is working.

What those ends are is in large measured by one's moral compass for better or for worse. Thus you can have rationally brilliant people using their minds for ends we would agree are evil, even as you can have brilliant people working toward good ends.

The question of morality, rather than being explored by rationality, is much better explored by such questions as what do you really want? Are you willing to honor limits? Are you willing to devote yourself to being helpful to others when that is not to your advantage or is what you get out of it your central focus?

This is not an exhaustive set of questions, of course. But rather than being settled by rational thought processes, they are bred into the bone of who we are. Our commitment to them is emotional and spiritual. This set of commitments which we shall refer to as a moral compass provide the driving force determining the use to which the rational gifts of the mind will be put...either good or evil.

Just one final thought, cthia. As human beings created in the image of God we are incredibly complex creatures in whom both good and evil can and does reside. No one of us is entirely moral in a positive way. And only very few are entirely evil. What RFC has done with the Detweilers is give us three dimensional characters who, although they are fanatcs given over to an evil cause, are nonetheless capable of loving their families, befriending their fellow travelers, exhibit generousity, and exhibiting other virtues toward the tribe of which they are a part.

Don

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n7axw wrote:Hi cthia,

I'm not sure we are really disagreeing. There are all sorts of valid ways to put this together. But for me, morality, that is our sense of right and wrong, is something to which we cling "come hell or high water," as my dad would put it. It is separate from rationalty which is the processes of the mind which seek to make sense out of the world and to achieve whatever ends toward which one is working.

What those ends are is in large measured by one's moral compass for better or for worse. Thus you can have rationally brilliant people using their minds for ends we would agree are evil, even as you can have brilliant people working toward good ends.

The question of morality, rather than being explored by rationality, is much better explored by such questions as what do you really want? Are you willing to honor limits? Are you willing to devote yourself to being helpful to others when that is not to your advantage or is what you get out of it your central focus?

This is not an exhaustive set of questions, of course. But rather than being settled by rational thought processes, they are bred into the bone of who we are. Our commitment to them is emotional and spiritual. This set of commitments which we shall refer to as a moral compass provide the driving force determining the use to which the rational gifts of the mind will be put...either good or evil.

Just one final thought, cthia. As human beings created in the image of God we are incredibly complex creatures in whom both good and evil can and does reside. No one of us is entirely moral in a positive way. And only very few are entirely evil. What RFC has done with the Detweilers is give us three dimensional characters who, although they are fanatcs given over to an evil cause, are nonetheless capable of loving their families, befriending their fellow travelers, exhibit generousity, and exhibiting other virtues toward the tribe of which they are a part.

Don

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The problem is that morality is not always simple. The Dets think that humanity needs improvement. At the point the novels are set, the differences seem more qualitative than anything else. Honor is pretty well augmented.

The Dets want to improve mankind. Take a look at most reformers. That's what they want. The Dets and followers see their opposition as crazed folk who want to keep people down.

We have a lot of situations like that now and they are not often settled to everyone's satisfaction. Instead of a major political international battle, look at public worker pensions.

The pensions of public workers can be very large in some places. In New York City, if you worked 20 years when I began many years ago, you would make about half pay for the rest of your life. A worker got 1.2 percent per year more for the next ten years and 1.7 percent per year after that. If you actually worked 40 years you would make more than 80 percent a year for the rest of your life. And since social security would not be taken out and you would not be taxed by the New York State government, you might well take home even more money than you did working.

I worked 36 years and did well. But my nice pension is an underfunded account. If things go down, a lot of people will be paying extra taxes to keep me going strong.

The burdens are becoming gigantic for states, running into tens of billions of underfunding and in a couple of big states running past a hundred billion.

I earned that money. Others may wind up supporting me and hurting themselves by doing so. I think I have morality on my side and cities and school districts going broke feel that their tax rates are already too high and it is immoral to demand more.

Things are not simple.

The Dets feel they have the right path and that those who oppose them are immoral.