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If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discussion.

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If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discussion.
Post by KJakker   » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:43 pm

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A question has been on my mind regarding comparison of World War II ships to Honorverse ships and I would like at ask it for discussion.

If the Saganami-C-class heavy cruiser were the equivalent of a Baltimore (CA-68) class heavy cruiser then what would Honorverse counterparts to the Brooklyn (CL-40) class, St. Louis (CL-49) class, Cleveland (CL-55) class, Worcester (CL-144) class, and Des Moines (CA-134) class of cruisers be like?

Class lead ship photo gallery links.
Cruiser Photo Index
USS Baltimore Gallery Link
USS Brooklyn Gallery Link
USS St. Louis Gallery Link
USS Cleveland Gallery Link
USS Worcester Gallery Link
USS Des Moines Gallery Link

Note, the ships were armed with the following guns.
Primary Battery

8"/55 (20.3 cm) RF Mark 16 Des Moines class (3x3)

8"/55 (20.3 cm) Marks 12 and 15 Baltimore class (3x3)

6"/47DP (15.2 cm) Mark 16 Worcester class (6x2)

6"/47 (15.2 cm) Mark 16 Brooklyn (5x3), St. Louis (5x3), and Cleveland (4x3) classes

Secondary Battery

5"/38 (12.7 cm) Mark 12 Baltimore (6x2), St. Louis (4x2), Cleveland (6x2), and Des Moines (6x2) classes

5"/25 (12.7 cm) Marks 10, 11, 13 and 17 Brooklyn (8x1) class

Medium & Light AA Battery

3"/50 (7.62 cm) Marks 27, 33 and 34 Worcester (12x2) and Des Moines (12x2) classes

40mm/56 Bofors Mark 1, Mark 2 and M1 Baltimore, Brooklyn, St. Louis, and Cleveland classes

20 mm/70 (0.79") Oerlikon Marks 2, 3 and 4 Baltimore, Brooklyn, St. Louis, Cleveland, Worcester, and Des Moines classes
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by clancy688   » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:40 pm

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A sidestep from your actual question:

Alaska class = Nike class? :lol:
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by Henry Brown   » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:12 pm

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The Sag C has so much firepower, I'd say they are more like the Des Moines class than the Baltimore class. Both historical cruiser classes had the same size guns, but the rate of fire for the Des Moines class was much higher due to the automated loading system. Does it really get any better than semi-automatic 8" naval guns? ;)
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:49 pm

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Henry Brown wrote:The Sag C has so much firepower, I'd say they are more like the Des Moines class than the Baltimore class. Both historical cruiser classes had the same size guns, but the rate of fire for the Des Moines class was much higher due to the automated loading system. Does it really get any better than semi-automatic 8" naval guns? ;)



I don't think you can do a comparison. Keep in mind that a relatively small group of cruisers knocked off a far larger number of SD's.

It's nice to have the same names as today's ships but the SagC's
were actually able to fight against SOLLIE ships of the wall.


The American cruisers did improve but it was on a far smaller scale.
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by zuluwiz   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:40 am

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My take on the Baltimore is that they were an incremental improvement on the previous class of CA: the Wichita. The Baltimores mostly were a case of the USN catching up with CAs from other navies. There was no major improvement in them, they were more survivable from combat damage because of their larger displacement. Their main armament was no different from most of the prewar CAs. The secondary armament was more numerous but no changes in gun size. The antiaircraft batteries were better than the prewar ships but that was true of all classes. The main improvement of the Baltimores was that the increased displacement made it possible to mount the increases in smaller guns.
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:59 am

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zuluwiz wrote:My take on the Baltimore is that they were an incremental improvement on the previous class of CA: the Wichita. The Baltimores mostly were a case of the USN catching up with CAs from other navies. There was no major improvement in them, they were more survivable from combat damage because of their larger displacement. Their main armament was no different from most of the prewar CAs. The secondary armament was more numerous but no changes in gun size. The antiaircraft batteries were better than the prewar ships but that was true of all classes. The main improvement of the Baltimores was that the increased displacement made it possible to mount the increases in smaller guns.


To be fair, the pre-war ships were trying to do a lot on a small displacement, the the US Navy knew it, as they started with the treaty cruiser designs, and slowly improved as the treaty requirements (and financial limits) fell off. The mid war ships continued that trend, slowly feeling their way towards the optimum design with more survivability. Then only real change was the Des Moine's new guns

I'd agree with the above, other than build #s, the Des Moine is the Sag-C. As David has posted before, the Alaska is the is the analog of the Nike.

The Oregon City would be the Sag-B, The Baltimore the Sag-Aa The New Orleans, the direct ancestor of all US WWII CAs, was the Star Knight - the transformational design of dual deck cruisers that all future CAs built off.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by saber964   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:45 pm

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The Des Moines class guns auto loading system was an upscale of the Brooklyn and Cleveland class ships.
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:52 pm

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saber964 wrote:The Des Moines class guns auto loading system was an upscale of the Brooklyn and Cleveland class ships.


Ummm.. the Brooklyn and Cleveland classes are Light Cruisers, with 6" guns.

The Des Moines was a Heavy Cruiser, with 8" guns. While the basic hulls and power plants were related, The Des Moines more followed the pattern of the Baltimore and Oregon City classes of Heavy Cruisers.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by saber964   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:16 pm

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Theemile wrote:
saber964 wrote:The Des Moines class guns auto loading system was an upscale of the Brooklyn and Cleveland class ships.


Ummm.. the Brooklyn and Cleveland classes are Light Cruisers, with 6" guns.

The Des Moines was a Heavy Cruiser, with 8" guns. While the basic hulls and power plants were related, The Des Moines more followed the pattern of the Baltimore and Oregon City classes of Heavy Cruisers.

Yes it was a heavy cruiser but the auto loading system were the same. The Brooklyn class had ROF of 8-10 RPM comparable to the Des Moines 10 RPM
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Re: If Sag-C = Baltimore, WWII cruisers as HH analog discuss
Post by KJakker   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:03 pm

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I just ran some numbers comparing the main battery of the Baltimore class with that of the Brooklyn and Cleveland classes and came up with the following.

A ship with similar size, speed, and defenses to a CA, that has between 30% and 60% more missile launchers. An ammunition capacity 33% greater per-launcher than a CA’s. Its missiles would have a hair over 86.9% of the range, 73.4% the defense penetration capability, and deliver 38.8% as much energy upon penetration yet are capable of being effectively launched and controlled at a rate of fire 2.57 times that of the CA.
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