A Call to Vengeance SPOILER: Haven polity

Lynn and Gensonne are discussing the risk of bringing the Volsung heavy forces to Danak:

pg 235 of the first edition hard cover:
[Gensonne] frowned. "You know, Danak is still too damn close to Haven for my liking. Isn't bringing a pair of battlecruisers into Havenite space going to get us noticed?"
"Not really," Lynne soothed. "Danak may be physically close to Haven, but it's not part of the Commonwealth. They're trading partners, but not yet real allies. That's why we're bringing the missiles there in the first place: they're close to Haven, they've got a well equipped shipyard, but they also have no official ties or obligations."

Is this "Commonwealth" that Lynne mentions something new, something I missed, or an Authorial disconnect that got past the proofreaders? Or is this how the Republic organized it's daughter and dependent worlds before going all conquistador with the People's Republic?

Fox2! wrote:Lynn and Gensonne are discussing the risk of bringing the Volsung heavy forces to Danak:

pg 235 of the first edition hard cover:
[Gensonne] frowned. "You know, Danak is still too damn close to Haven for my liking. Isn't bringing a pair of battlecruisers into Havenite space going to get us noticed?"
"Not really," Lynne soothed. "Danak may be physically close to Haven, but it's not part of the Commonwealth. They're trading partners, but not yet real allies. That's why we're bringing the missiles there in the first place: they're close to Haven, they've got a well equipped shipyard, but they also have no official ties or obligations."

Is this "Commonwealth" that Lynne mentions something new, something I missed, or an Authorial disconnect that got past the proofreaders? Or is this how the Republic organized it's daughter and dependent worlds before going all conquistador with the People's Republic?

This was back when Haven was a bastion of freedom and prosperity for the region. Some of its daughter worlds were independent and others were associated in a commomwealth arrangement as described above. It wasn't until much later that the Old Republic was transformed into the "Peeps".

Don

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n7axw wrote:
This was back when Haven was a bastion of freedom and prosperity for the region. Some of its daughter worlds were independent and others were associated in a commomwealth arrangement as described above. It wasn't until much later that the Old Republic was transformed into the "Peeps".

Don

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Agree that this is the most likely explanation. Is this the first time RFC has mentioned a "Havenite Commonwealth", or did i sleep read through an earlier mention?

Fox2! wrote:
Agree that this is the most likely explanation. Is this the first time RFC has mentioned a "Havenite Commonwealth", or did i sleep read through an earlier mention?

A quick text search failed to turn up the word "commonwealth" in any of the other books...

Fox2! wrote:Agree that this is the most likely explanation. Is this the first time RFC has mentioned a "Havenite Commonwealth", or did i sleep read through an earlier mention?

Jonathan_S wrote:A quick text search failed to turn up the word "commonwealth" in any of the other books...

May be a mischaracterization by the characters. Like calling Britain a commonwealth yet it's government is a Constitutional Momarchy. And + the terms are fairly synonymous.

pappilon wrote:

Fox2! wrote:Agree that this is the most likely explanation. Is this the first time RFC has mentioned a "Havenite Commonwealth", or did i sleep read through an earlier mention?

Jonathan_S wrote:A quick text search failed to turn up the word "commonwealth" in any of the other books...

May be a mischaracterization by the characters. Like calling Britain a commonwealth yet it's government is a Constitutional Momarchy. And + the terms are fairly synonymous.

Britain isn't a Commonwealth. It's a member of the British Commonwealth, which is now more commonly called The Commonwealth, or The Commonwealth of Nations. Confused?

Anyway, 'The' Commonwealth is a group of independent nations, mostly former British colonies, that've agreed to continue joining together for certain purposes. If RFC is thinking of that sort of Commonwealth, you couldn't get a bigger contrast between the original 'shining star' Haven and the People's Republic. Commonwealth nations (Haven's daughter colonies?) are fully independent and can leave the Commonwealth at any time. And return, as well. Membership is a bit ... fluid.

Like I said, massive contrast to the PRH and their policy of invading planets and keeping them under the PRH by force.

He might also be thinking of the original meaning of the term, which is 'political community founded for the common good'

[There was also 'The Commonwealth of England' (not Britain), but that was when England was a republic, back in the 17th Century].

pappilon wrote:
May be a mischaracterization by the characters. Like calling Britain a commonwealth yet it's government is a Constitutional Momarchy. And + the terms are fairly synonymous.

Great Britain hasn't been a Commonwealth since the son of the Regicide abdicated in favor of the True King.

(Yes, I'm a Jacobite. Does it show? )

I see that Bluesqueak is making a difference between England and Britain. Since the Roundheads ruled England and Wales, occupied Scotland, and were hell-bent on conquering Ireland, it's a difference without a distinction. At least part of my family seems to have ended up in Connacht despite having started in a more easterly county.

pappilon wrote:
May be a mischaracterization by the characters. Like calling Britain a commonwealth yet it's government is a Constitutional Momarchy. And + the terms are fairly synonymous.

Fox2! wrote:Great Britain hasn't been a Commonwealth since the son of the Regicide abdicated in favor of the True King.

(Yes, I'm a Jacobite. Does it show? )

I see that Bluesqueak is making a difference between England and Britain. Since the Roundheads ruled England and Wales, occupied Scotland, and were hell-bent on conquering Ireland, it's a difference without a distinction. At least part of my family seems to have ended up in Connacht despite having started in a more easterly county.

And then the Roundheads took their Puritannical views to Amurika aftr the restoration, if memory serves?

I know what the commonwealth is. Youobviously know what the commonwealth is. Do our illustrious characters in the book know?

TEXTEV P154: "But she [Brigadier Jean Massingill] wasn't worried. The Republic of Haven Navy didn't answer to anyone on Solway."

Obviously Haven thinks of itself politically as a Republic, regardless of the economic system's evolution

pappilon wrote:

Fox2! wrote:Great Britain hasn't been a Commonwealth since the son of the Regicide abdicated in favor of the True King.

(Yes, I'm a Jacobite. Does it show? )

I see that Bluesqueak is making a difference between England and Britain. Since the Roundheads ruled England and Wales, occupied Scotland, and were hell-bent on conquering Ireland, it's a difference without a distinction. At least part of my family seems to have ended up in Connacht despite having started in a more easterly county.

And then the Roundheads took their Puritannical views to Amurika aftr the restoration, if memory serves?

I know what the commonwealth is. Youobviously know what the commonwealth is. Do our illustrious characters in the book know?

TEXTEV P154: "But she [Brigadier Jean Massingill] wasn't worried. The Republic of Haven Navy didn't answer to anyone on Solway."

Obviously Haven thinks of itself politically as a Republic, regardless of the economic system's evolution

Makes sense. Most nations of The Commonwealth think of themselves as nations first, Commonwealth members second. Or even third. Did I say fluid? A Brit would probably mutter that the Royal Navy doesn't answer to anyone in Somalia, even though we might be there on Commonwealth business. And yet, the Commonwealth is not a monarchy, even though the Queen is the current Head.

I did mention the whole 'fluid' thing?

Distinguishing between England, Scotland, and Ireland during the 1) English Civil War 2) Scottish Covenanter Wars and 3) Cromwellian Conquest of Ireland is NOT a difference without a distinction. They were three separate but connected wars that ended in Cromwell ruling all the countries for about five years, from 1653. The three together are sometimes called The Wars of The Three Kingdoms.

The English Commonwealth started earlier - 1649, and it's Wales that usually gets dumped in with England. Wales and England in the English Civil War really are a difference without a distinction.

As far as I recall previous mentions have been towards the Havenite Octet, which implies that haven had seven or eight daughter colonies, which we have been given to understand were technically at least somewhat independent, but generally followed Haven's guide. But at that same time we have also been told that Haven was a leading power and example, the Athens of the stars, to such an extent that even before the junction was surveyed that Manticore was generally lumped by the citizens of the league as being at the edge of the somewhat vague 'Haven Quadrant', and after the junction was surveyed it was very imprecisely lumped into the 'Haven Sector'. So Haven running a commonwealth, in the sense of 'let us all work together economically and militarily' with the local bootstrap colonies is not all that hard to believe, weather the commonwealth is a multilateral agreement that is formally called that or is a Leaguer shorthand is actually somewhat unimportant, the relationship will not be strong enough that it is a star nation.