Remaining holes in SLN intel

cthia wrote:The world’s 10 best anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters.

Aha! Dipping sonar!

Reminds me of something Star Fleet did to detect Romulan vessels, which reminds me of the notion I hoped the RMN could use reconfigured LACs to sweep for stealthy Malign ships.

cthia wrote:The world’s 10 best anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters.

Aha! Dipping sonar!

Or they can drop sonobouys like anti-sub fixed wing maritime patrol aircraft (like the US's P-3 or P-8) do. Or carry a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector.

There's even been experimental work at using lasers to detect subs, or at least the water displacement the cause when moving.


As for aircraft mix carried I think that does get tailored for the mission, but usually for the USMC it's a mix of transport (SuperStalion, SeaHawk and/or V-22 Osprey) and ground attack (AH-1 Cobra) as well as a few fixed wing ground attack aircraft (AV-8B Harrier II and now just starting to possibly carry F-35B Joint Strike Fighters)
My understanding is the mix is heavily weighted towards transport helicopters/tiltrotors because they carry a lot of Marines to fly over the beach; and comparatively few ground attack aircraft/choppers.
And I don't know if the USN routinely carried any anti-submarine helicopters on their helicopter assault ships; I think in the USN those are normally from the single chopper flight deck at the rear of the escorts.

munroburton wrote:It's really hard to identify which was the stronger revolution, the MDM or the podlayer, since both were introduced almost simultaneously.

Consider this scenario - Manticore invents the MDM, but not podlayers. Haven comes up with the podlayers, but no MDMs. Which would be more effective, Gryphons built from scratch with MDMs(a SD version of the Nike/Sag-C/Roland, basically) or Sovereign of Spaces loaded with SDM pods?

Wouldn't there be a smaller chance for a less than stellar officer, say Elvis Santino, to screw up by the numbers with MDMs than with pods? Utilizing pod layers may require a bit more tactical acumen. Santino simply had no more to give.

Weird Harold wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:I would guess these helicopter carriers will generally be used in conjunction with aircraft from either large carriers or land.

The specific case that prompted the discussion of helicopter carriers is the Brazilian Navy replacing its only Aircraft Carrier with a single Helicopter Carrier. The Brazilians didn't have any carrier based AEW planes so they have always worked with land-based AEW and Patrol. Since they only have one carrier, they're NOT going to be working in conjunction with large carriers.

Other nations will have different reasons for commissioning helicopter carriers; the US, for example, uses them as floating Marine bases under the Air Superiority umbrella of fleet carriers' fixed wing and ASW shield of other battle group ships.

cthia wrote:Thanks for explaining that for me. Having only a 'copter carrier was what befuddled me. But hey, it only has to make sense to them. Also, it may have been a lot cheaper to build and may fit their needs better.

And the fact that the Brazilian carrier seems to be a "pure" chopper carrier. However, since it was cheaper for them to buy, it makes sense. (Thanks @ Jonathan.)

That is the Japanese carrier. Oops.

One thing I'm fascinated about. How much of ONI's intel is Beth privy too? Wouldn't she enjoy the highest level of security? In particular, would there be a fine line between divulging information and worrying her needlessly? Is she part of some daily brief?

But then, I can imagine King Roger knew about every cock that crew.

cthia wrote:And the fact that the Brazilian carrier seems to be a "pure" chopper carrier.

The Brazilian Navy's end-of-year roundup statement, published on Christmas Eve 2017, also included the line: "Minister Raul Jungmann and the Brazilian Navy Commander Eduardo Bacellar Leal Ferreira took the opportunity to announce the purchase of the Royal Navy's HMS Ocean multifunction vessel, valued at £84m sterling."

Google is your friend: HMS Ocean

cthia wrote:One thing I'm fascinated about. How much of ONI's intel is Beth privy too? Wouldn't she enjoy the highest level of security? In particular, would there be a fine line between divulging information and worrying her needlessly? Is she part of some daily brief?

I don't recall any mention in textev of the briefing schedule, but it is clear that QEIII/EEI gets at least weekly briefings on all sorts of things. She also has her own sources to bring things left out of the briefings to her attention -- sort of briefings on the briefings.

She also has "plot armor" that insures that she gets critical information at the time best suited to the story development.

cthia wrote:One thing I'm fascinated about. How much of ONI's intel is Beth privy too? Wouldn't she enjoy the highest level of security? In particular, would there be a fine line between divulging information and worrying her needlessly? Is she part of some daily brief?

Weird Harold wrote:I don't recall any mention in textev of the briefing schedule, but it is clear that QEIII/EEI gets at least weekly briefings on all sorts of things. She also has her own sources to bring things left out of the briefings to her attention -- sort of briefings on the briefings.

She also has "plot armor" that insures that she gets critical information at the time best suited to the story development.

Its probably a matter of relevance. She makes political decisions. She needs to know that Erewhon is supplying ships to Maya, She doesn't need to know the minutiae of the design specs, only their comparables to RMN classes.

cthia wrote:

munroburton wrote:It's really hard to identify which was the stronger revolution, the MDM or the podlayer, since both were introduced almost simultaneously.

Consider this scenario - Manticore invents the MDM, but not podlayers. Haven comes up with the podlayers, but no MDMs. Which would be more effective, Gryphons built from scratch with MDMs(a SD version of the Nike/Sag-C/Roland, basically) or Sovereign of Spaces loaded with SDM pods?

Wouldn't there be a smaller chance for a less than stellar officer, say Elvis Santino, to screw up by the numbers with MDMs than with pods? Utilizing pod layers may require a bit more tactical acumen. Santino simply had no more to give.

Read Jonathan's analysis of this scenario. On the defensive, both weapons technology on its own loses to the other. On the offensive, they're near unstoppable.

Santino was a jackass who fought on the defensive when outnumbered more than seven to one instead of retreating and preserving his force to fight another day. Over a worthless outpost too.

If he tries defending with 3 MDM SDs against 20 podlayers, he is toast. Vice versa, if he tries defending against 20 MDM wallers with 3 SDM SD(P)s, he is also toast.

cthia wrote:

munroburton wrote:It's really hard to identify which was the stronger revolution, the MDM or the podlayer, since both were introduced almost simultaneously.

Consider this scenario - Manticore invents the MDM, but not podlayers. Haven comes up with the podlayers, but no MDMs. Which would be more effective, Gryphons built from scratch with MDMs(a SD version of the Nike/Sag-C/Roland, basically) or Sovereign of Spaces loaded with SDM pods?

Wouldn't there be a smaller chance for a less than stellar officer, say Elvis Santino, to screw up by the numbers with MDMs than with pods? Utilizing pod layers may require a bit more tactical acumen. Santino simply had no more to give.

munroburton wrote:Read Jonathan's analysis of this scenario. On the defensive, both weapons technology on its own loses to the other. On the offensive, they're near unstoppable.

Santino was a jackass who fought on the defensive when outnumbered more than seven to one instead of retreating and preserving his force to fight another day. Over a worthless outpost too.

If he tries defending with 3 MDM SDs against 20 podlayers, he is toast. Vice versa, if he tries defending against 20 MDM wallers with 3 SDM SD(P)s, he is also toast.

I would imagine that even an offensive stance with 20 podlayers can be more easily botched than with MDMs, if wrong decisions are made to lay down pods untimely or incorrectly (wrong vector).

Podlayers would seem to require a bit more tactical acumen is all I'm saying.