Call to Vengeance Ramblings SPOILERS

Dauntless wrote:if it hadn't been for the peep threat it is very unlikely that the RMN would have bothered to build more then a squadron or 2 of SDs for home defence, (much like Beowulf and various solly systems). The rest of the ship budget would have gone on DDs and CLs and the some CAs as needed and maybe the odd BC.

pre peep threat the RMN was only needed to deal with Sileasa and other pirates for which light platforms and lots of them were called for.

so without even the RMMN or junction to protect yet it is hardly a surprise that a lot of the SKM's politicians don't recognise the need for lots of ships. completely forgetting that most of the time you don't know that you need a weapon until you do and that ships take a long time to build.

It makes sense to build for the threat you actually face. But that is only as good as your threat assessment which requires a solid investment in intel and a willingness to be honest even when that assessment is inconvenient for your priorities.

Don

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Dauntless wrote:if it hadn't been for the peep threat it is very unlikely that the RMN would have bothered to build more then a squadron or 2 of SDs for home defence, (much like Beowulf and various solly systems). The rest of the ship budget would have gone on DDs and CLs and the some CAs as needed and maybe the odd BC.

pre peep threat the RMN was only needed to deal with Sileasa and other pirates for which light platforms and lots of them were called for.

so without even the RMMN or junction to protect yet it is hardly a surprise that a lot of the SKM's politicians don't recognise the need for lots of ships. completely forgetting that most of the time you don't know that you need a weapon until you do and that ships take a long time to build.

Actually, reading HoS's "I will build my house of Steel", we get a glimpse of what would have happened had there been no havenite threat. Some Royal Wintons would have been built, probably just enough to replace the Thorston BBs, and the Samothraces would have been built, - only 3, and only 1 at a time with breaks in between.
The wall probably would have shrunk from 25 active and inactive ships to ~16 (or 2 squadrons + reserve).

Manticore would never have built a native laserhead, and never have pushed the ideas which lead to the LACs, pods, ghostrider, FTL, and MDMs. It was only the threat of Haven that got Manticore looking for other options.

Dauntless wrote:if it hadn't been for the peep threat it is very unlikely that the RMN would have bothered to build more then a squadron or 2 of SDs for home defence, (much like Beowulf and various solly systems). The rest of the ship budget would have gone on DDs and CLs and the some CAs as needed and maybe the odd BC.

pre peep threat the RMN was only needed to deal with Sileasa and other pirates for which light platforms and lots of them were called for.

so without even the RMMN or junction to protect yet it is hardly a surprise that a lot of the SKM's politicians don't recognise the need for lots of ships. completely forgetting that most of the time you don't know that you need a weapon until you do and that ships take a long time to build.

They had the 3 Manticore class SD's, 11 Ad Astra dreadnoughts, two squadrons of Thorson class battleships, and a good number of small ships. Without the SIS's briefings to Queen Samantha, they likely wouldn't have bothered to upgrade their ships from the Warrior/Truncheon and Courageous class cruisers, and Noble class destroyers. The upgrades to their order of battle in the 1850's were carried out in the Crown's awareness of the Havenite threat.

That most of the upgrades took place in the lighter classes was due to shortsighted Admirals who closely connected to the opposition political fallacies. . . . And insisted that not only did the Havenite threat not exist, their primary mission was commerce protection. So you got the Homer, Prince Consort, Apollo, and Havoc classes.

If not for the refusal to accept the Legislaturist threat inherent in the Liberal, Progressive, and Conservative politics and their combined influence, and incompetence at ONI (which had Janacek as a senior analyst), it would have been Queen Samantha's Naval buildup. She had to get rid of the First Space Lord, and the head of BuShips, and the blind idiot at ONI.

Rob
edited to add the dn's

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Dauntless wrote:if it hadn't been for the peep threat it is very unlikely that the RMN would have bothered to build more then a squadron or 2 of SDs for home defence, (much like Beowulf and various solly systems). The rest of the ship budget would have gone on DDs and CLs and the some CAs as needed and maybe the odd BC.

pre peep threat the RMN was only needed to deal with Sileasa and other pirates for which light platforms and lots of them were called for.

so without even the RMMN or junction to protect yet it is hardly a surprise that a lot of the SKM's politicians don't recognise the need for lots of ships. completely forgetting that most of the time you don't know that you need a weapon until you do and that ships take a long time to build.

They had the 3 Manticore class SD's, 11 Ad Astra dreadnoughts, two squadrons of Thorson class battleships, and a good number of small ships. Without the SIS's briefings to Queen Samantha, they likely wouldn't have bothered to upgrade their ships from the Warrior/Truncheon and Courageous class cruisers, and Noble class destroyers. The upgrades to their order of battle in the 1850's were carried out in the Crown's awareness of the Havenite threat.

That most of the upgrades took place in the lighter classes was due to shortsighted Admirals who closely connected to the opposition political fallacies. . . . And insisted that not only did the Havenite threat not exist, their primary mission was commerce protection. So you got the Homer, Prince Consort, Apollo, and Havoc classes.

If not for the refusal to accept the Legislaturist threat inherent in the Liberal, Progressive, and Conservative politics and their combined influence, and incompetence at ONI (which had Janacek as a senior analyst), it would have been Queen Samantha's Naval buildup. She had to get rid of the First Space Lord, and the head of BuShips, and the blind idiot at ONI.

Rob
edited to add the dn's

Text has either 11 or 12 Thorston's built with only 11 on the books in 1850. With the Manticore's and Ad Astras, that was 25 ships, or ~ 3 squadrons, each lead by an SD.

However, it seems that in actuality, about 1/3rd of the wall were usually under refit or in the reserve at any time - At the time of Rodger Winton's letter in the proceedings, the SDs were in Reserve, and only ~2 squadrons were active, with several of the Thorstons also "permanently" sidelined.

However, when you count Junction forts and planetary forts, Manticore probably had ~75 capital units total in 1850. So it's no wonder they felt secure.

Peter2 wrote:There is always the possibility that the Winterfall line continues through Gavin, and Travis provides such sterling service to the Crown that he is ennobled independently for his own deeds. I shall have to go back through the Honorverse oevre and do some speculating on the possiblities . . .
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The Brothers Alexander, though their respective estates do not share the same name. Herself, the eponymous, whose original barony passed to her cousin after her untimely demise at Cerberus.

Also possible that Gavin, who inherited through his father, (Ok, just saying) dies with no heir and QEII cedes it to Travis for "services to The Crown."

lyonheart wrote: {snip]

I suspect the next book will deal with upgrading the RMN and MPARS etc, probably with a special defense tax [4-5%?] and include a trip to the Free Duchy of Barca (probably in a Havenite freighter) to find out more of who and why they're involved.

The improved warships could include freighter 'Q' ships, that may operate as ore ship/MPARS to watch for low signature hyper entries way out there, as well as mouse trapping anyone passing the hyper limit, NTM providing more room for training more RMN/MPARS crewmen.


Don

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Oh, yes a "courtesy call" to the grand lounge lizard of Barca is a definite must, regardless of whatever information can be gleaned from dubiously acquired computers. Probably Casey and a renovated BC.

I doubt Travis would think of it, but perhaps "Chomps" will make a few detailed sketches of the improvisations he and Travis made to their shuttle plus renderings of the Andermani RD, convince Hauptmann to rate a prototype on his own nickel and cut the boys in for a tiny but reasonable piece of any profits.

pappilon wrote:

lyonheart wrote: {snip]

I suspect the next book will deal with upgrading the RMN and MPARS etc, probably with a special defense tax [4-5%?] and include a trip to the Free Duchy of Barca (probably in a Havenite freighter) to find out more of who and why they're involved.

The improved warships could include freighter 'Q' ships, that may operate as ore ship/MPARS to watch for low signature hyper entries way out there, as well as mouse trapping anyone passing the hyper limit, NTM providing more room for training more RMN/MPARS crewmen.


Don

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Oh, yes a "courtesy call" to the grand lounge lizard of Barca is a definite must, regardless of whatever information can be gleaned from dubiously acquired computers. Probably Casey and a renovated BC.

I doubt Travis would think of it, but perhaps "Chomps" will make a few detailed sketches of the improvisations he and Travis made to their shuttle plus renderings of the Andermani RD, convince Hauptmann to rate a prototype on his own nickel and cut the boys in for a tiny but reasonable piece of any profits.

Barnes Wallis, who pioneered the geodesic structure used in the Wellington bomber and conceived and designed the bouncing bomb used by the Dambusters, also designed the Tallboy and Grand Slam ground penetration or "earthquake" bombs. (These were heavy bombs – the Tallboy weighed 6 tons (Imperial tons, 1 ton = 2240 lb) and the Grand Slam 10 tons) – intended to penetrate deep into the ground before exploding, and do damage by ground-transmitted shock waves.) The Tallboy was first used after D-Day in a raid on the Saumur rail tunnel to prevent a Panzer division being rushed up from southern France to help repel the invasion. The raid was successful, and in the reconnaissance photographs taken after the raid, attention was drawn to a bomb which had hit the steeply sloping hillside, drilled down to the tunnel, and exploded there, causing the hillside to collapse into the tunnel. The rail line was not back in action until after the war.

It is reported in Paul Brickhill's book The Dam Busters that an officer from Bomber Command rushed into one of the operating sections waving one of these photographs and shouting something like "Fantastic, fantastic, how many more of these things have we got?" An official from (IIRC) A. V. Roe, who had built the bomb, replied "None for you, I'm afraid." The officer looked startled, and said "What do you mean?" The response was "They're ours. You never ordered them, so we built them on spec." The officer said "Hm. We'll see about that!" and a purchase order for the bombs was delivered later that afternoon.

The earthquake bombs were later used against the V3 supergun emplacement at Mimoyeques, the heavily reinforced submarine pens (maybe at Brest? I can't remember exactly), and on other occasions. I seem to remember reading that the Tirpitz was severely damaged by a Tallboy dropped in an RAF bombing raid from a Russian airbase, and Grand Slams were used in the raid that finally sank her.
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So, two spoiler questions.
One, compoud: Did the Casey get to either replenish her missiles expended and or get to strip out any unused ordinance from the pirate fleet ships? Did they also get to grab any sort of spairs or at least samples of all sorts of new-to-them tech from the defeated pirates. And since it appears that the pirates surrendered a bunch of ships, why didn't our could't they get one as a prize for their participation?
I mean, really, the Aldermani took or destroyed everything with the excepton of the pirate controled freighers (nominaly prizes they took) which they used to take the "civllian" population of the planet and system back to it's home system? Not one measly frigate? Or stuff Casey full of ordence, manuals, specs, more modern (to them) environmental gear, propulsion stuff, sensors, computers etc, etc, etc? ????? Particularly if the Aldermani were going to destroy it. The IAN could- perhaps - put prize crews on some of the warships and took them away...but why not pass a small one to Manticore, presuming the Casey could have put a skeleton crew aboard and kept company with the prize on the way back to Manticore. Gee, another warship, hypercapable, with even old weapons?

Two, At Danak, of the options for the pirates while they had to cool their heels given they were going to have to cycle ships through upgrades rather than all at once....see THE TWINS? Would that be a place that shows up much later when Honor is around?

So many questions.....

Brigade XO wrote:So, two spoiler questions.
One, compoud: Did the Casey get to either replenish her missiles expended and or get to strip out any unused ordinance from the pirate fleet ships? Did they also get to grab any sort of spairs or at least samples of all sorts of new-to-them tech from the defeated pirates. And since it appears that the pirates surrendered a bunch of ships, why didn't our could't they get one as a prize for their participation?
I mean, really, the Aldermani took or destroyed everything with the excepton of the pirate controled freighers (nominaly prizes they took) which they used to take the "civllian" population of the planet and system back to it's home system? Not one measly frigate? Or stuff Casey full of ordence, manuals, specs, more modern (to them) environmental gear, propulsion stuff, sensors, computers etc, etc, etc? ????? Particularly if the Aldermani were going to destroy it. The IAN could- perhaps - put prize crews on some of the warships and took them away...but why not pass a small one to Manticore, presuming the Casey could have put a skeleton crew aboard and kept company with the prize on the way back to Manticore. Gee, another warship, hypercapable, with even old weapons?

Two, At Danak, of the options for the pirates while they had to cool their heels given they were going to have to cycle ships through upgrades rather than all at once....see THE TWINS? Would that be a place that shows up much later when Honor is around?

So many questions.....

1) Coulda, shoulda woulda. From textev not.(A) Someone, not Casey's marines, would have had to board the prizes and insure all Mercenaries/pirates were indeed off the ship and no nasty things that could go boom at the end of the watch were still around.
(B) She asked for access to computers on the station, did not request any other stuff. or missiles or prizes. Not to say stuff was not liberated from station stores, procurement officers being who they are... She got what she asked for
(C) "Official" reason the bulk of the Mercs were gone was new missiles needed new hardware and software to make them work. Casey was using approximately similarly performing missiles, but not necessarily compatible ones for her systems and hardware.

(2) Unknown by texrev, but My SWAG is no.

Brigade XO wrote:So, two spoiler questions.
One, compoud: Did the Casey get to either replenish her missiles expended and or get to strip out any unused ordinance from the pirate fleet ships? Did they also get to grab any sort of spairs or at least samples of all sorts of new-to-them tech from the defeated pirates. And since it appears that the pirates surrendered a bunch of ships, why didn't our could't they get one as a prize for their participation?
I mean, really, the Aldermani took or destroyed everything with the excepton of the pirate controled freighers (nominaly prizes they took) which they used to take the "civllian" population of the planet and system back to it's home system? Not one measly frigate? Or stuff Casey full of ordence, manuals, specs, more modern (to them) environmental gear, propulsion stuff, sensors, computers etc, etc, etc? ????? Particularly if the Aldermani were going to destroy it. The IAN could- perhaps - put prize crews on some of the warships and took them away...but why not pass a small one to Manticore, presuming the Casey could have put a skeleton crew aboard and kept company with the prize on the way back to Manticore. Gee, another warship, hypercapable, with even old weapons?

Two, At Danak, of the options for the pirates while they had to cool their heels given they were going to have to cycle ships through upgrades rather than all at once....see THE TWINS? Would that be a place that shows up much later when Honor is around?

So many questions.....

IIRC, Casey was supposed to be going into Silesia to show the flag, talk to manufacturers, and see if there's a market for Manticore made warships. The 'find the Volsungs' mission was a secret mission.

It's slightly tricky to keep your mercenary hunting secret if you turn up back at Manticore with an additional spaceship in tow. I mean, you can tell the crew that the destruction of the Volsungs base is rated Top Secret, do not discuss, we don't know what agents they still have - but how DO you explain a frigate? Yeah, we met some really cool Andermani, and they just happened to have this frigate they didn't want...

The mission required that they acquire information about who was behind the attack. It's pretty clear that Clegg, Travis and Chomps were willing to let the Andermani have everything else, if they could only get them the Volsungs computers and databases. A frigate won't save Manticore, but finding who is targeting them and why might.