Remaining holes in SLN intel

Jonathan_S wrote:But it was pretty ugly and they rapidly realized it made more sense to build a new SD(P) than refit an SD for MDMs, now mater how new the SD was. My mention, that triggered this sub thread was just a counter factual to show that IMHO pods were a bigger impact than MDMs.

There was a discussion about next generation SDs that talked about whether pods were a good idea going forward or if you couldn't generate more firepower with tubes. I can't remember where David came down, but IIRC the next generation was planned to use dorsal and ventral pod discharge to reduce the chance of lucky hits crippling the ship.

Jonathan_S wrote:

But it was pretty ugly and they rapidly realized it made more sense to build a new SD(P) than refit an SD for MDMs, now mater how new the SD was. My mention, that triggered this sub thread was just a counter factual to show that IMHO pods were a bigger impact than MDMs.

IIRC, Hamish was regretting that GNS Benjamin the Great, the Grayson's newest and most powerful non-pod laying SD, and his flag for the relief of Trevor's Star, was essentially obsolete with the advent of the Honor Harrington class SD(P)s.

Jonathan_S wrote:For example, if 500 Scientist and Vega class SDs came over the wall on a zero-zero intercept for Manticore itself you've got about 4 and quarter hours before they're in orbit. Having 150 or so Gryphon class SDs, even upgraded to fire MDMs, without any pods and without the accuracy boost of Apollo, you're going to have a very hard time killing enough of them to stop the SLN juggernaught.

And there aren't enough missile pods laying around Manticore? Remember, the pods can be just kicked out the hatch if need be. We saw Haven doing this with minelayers.

Also, you don't need total destruction. Any ship that takes impeller damage is now behind the pack and need not be targeted further until the main group is dealt with.

Also, how many captains wouldn't surrender once they realized they were being used to soak up missiles?

Theemile wrote:And don't forget, the SLN has 2 stage missiles now. Given time, they can match any range the RMN can. Now their targeting sux - even against non-Apollo RMN platforms, the warheads are anemic, and the missile's top velocity is low (though it can generate high Delta V during the attack phase.)But they can d controlled attacks at long ranges.

But this isn't now. The question was when the SLN would no longer have been able to put out the fire if they had realized it was there.

Jonathan_S wrote:1 on 1 they'd eat a Scientist for lunch unless it somehow got the drop on them within energy range. Even 2 or 3 to one, with range to play with or a target you're ultimately willing to abandon they'd bleed an attacker for little to no damage themselves. About the only thing they can't do is, while badly outnumbered, kill a swarm of SDs fast enough to keep them from reaching a target that can't run.

Upthread it was stated 4 1/2 hours from the limit to Manticore. That's far more time any ship we have seen can keep firing.

The only way they get through to anything important is by running the defenders out of missiles--and that effectively means any pods the target has around, even if the ships aren't carrying them.

Given the number of pods Filareta faced it's obvious there's a huge number of them around.

Once they enter MDM range of the target every volley is going to be as many missiles as the ships can control.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Dauntless wrote:I think that MDM capable Gryphons would still put up a much better fight then many suggest.

though I do agree that a first gen podnought is needed to truly demonstrate just how much junk the reserve has become.

The only issue is that they lack the concentrated punch of an SD(P) so it takes longer to erode away an enemy. They'd be awesome units in a running battle. Use your acceleration (which even with pre-war compensators isn't that much worse than a Scientist) to hold the range open and bleed the enemy while he can't hurt you.

The only issue is if you run out of room to lead him by the nose (such as when several times your numbers head straight for your home planet)


1 on 1 they'd eat a Scientist for lunch unless it somehow got the drop on them within energy range. Even 2 or 3 to one, with range to play with or a target you're ultimately willing to abandon they'd bleed an attacker for little to no damage themselves. About the only thing they can't do is, while badly outnumbered, kill a swarm of SDs fast enough to keep them from reaching a target that can't run.

I think I will side with Dauntless--the Gryphons that were refitted with MDMs were likely among the last built, so still in construction when the Medusa's were being built; even so, impossibly expensive to upgrade.

But the Medusa's were on the books as "Flight III Gryphon" class; suppose they actually modded the Gryphon to MDMs? Think about this as well --several other technologies were being introduced at the same time and could have been included. A) first gen Ghost Rider drones with the fusion powerplants; B) Off bore capability that showed up in the Shrike; C) Bow wall technology, that was included in the Shrike, and the Flight 2 Saganami-A. And, they were on the third gen compensator, so the Gryphon's would have been able to pull around 500g accelerations.

If their fire control could handle firing the missiles off-bore, their 37 missile broadside becomes 72 missiles plus 9 chase for 81 missiles. Their launch cycle is once per minute for 2 hours (the 2 for 1 rule). However, with the large Mk41, let's assume just one hour of firing.

150 ships firing 81 missiles is a salvo of 12150; at 200 for a mission kill, that is 60 targets down per salvo.

Even if you just use broadside numbers, you have 5550 missiles going downrange in each salvo; you would kill about 28 ships a minute. For an hour. That is, 1680 ships killed--except you are only offering up 500. This, with just the 37 launchers per ship. Ah, that also assumes starting fire at circa 30m km, and pacing the SLN vessels.

It is worth noting also, that Manticore's ships pretty much all could fire a doubled (I mean, stacked) broadside; it was one of the tactics used early on. Also, because of the towed pods, the RMN was increasing its fire control links in general. The Scientist/Vega was limited in its fire control to 40 missiles per salvo.

You'll need a few more Sollies to get in as of 1914.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:For example, if 500 Scientist and Vega class SDs came over the wall on a zero-zero intercept for Manticore itself you've got about 4 and quarter hours before they're in orbit. Having 150 or so Gryphon class SDs, even upgraded to fire MDMs, without any pods and without the accuracy boost of Apollo, you're going to have a very hard time killing enough of them to stop the SLN juggernaught.

And there aren't enough missile pods laying around Manticore? Remember, the pods can be just kicked out the hatch if need be. We saw Haven doing this with minelayers.

Also, you don't need total destruction. Any ship that takes impeller damage is now behind the pack and need not be targeted further until the main group is dealt with.

Also, how many captains wouldn't surrender once they realized they were being used to soak up missiles?

Again, this was a counter factual scenario where pods didn’t exist.[1] A Manticore with thousands of MDM system defense pods, but only non-pod MDM equipped SDs would be in a much better position to destroy hundreds of attacking Scientist class SDs.


[1] someone implied that MDMs along would have let Manticore beat the SLN and I was trying to show that pods were also s critical part of that capability by pointing out that without pods you don’t have the fire density to quickly crush really large numbers of targets.

Loren Pechtel wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
For example, if 500 Scientist and Vega class SDs came over the wall on a zero-zero intercept for Manticore itself you've got about 4 and quarter hours before they're in orbit. Having 150 or so Gryphon class SDs, even upgraded to fire MDMs, without any pods and without the accuracy boost of Apollo, you're going to have a very hard time killing enough of them to stop the SLN juggernaught.


And there aren't enough missile pods laying around Manticore? Remember, the pods can be just kicked out the hatch if need be. We saw Haven doing this with minelayers.

Also, you don't need total destruction. Any ship that takes impeller damage is now behind the pack and need not be targeted further until the main group is dealt with.

Also, how many captains wouldn't surrender once they realized they were being used to soak up missiles?
Again, this was a counter factual scenario where pods didn’t exist.[1] A Manticore with thousands of MDM system defense pods, but only non-pod MDM equipped SDs would be in a much better position to destroy hundreds of attacking Scientist class SDs.


[1] someone implied that MDMs along would have let Manticore beat the SLN and I was trying to show that pods were also s critical part of that capability by pointing out that without pods you don’t have the fire density to quickly crush really large numbers of targets.

If the sollies want to control Manticore. If they want to destroy Manticore they only need to go down from hyper, start their missles in a ballistic way and destroy manticore and the other planets with a rain of nukes.

That´s the weakness of pods. They could destroy any incomming ships, but not the incomming missles. That´s why I thought to build real defense satellites armed with missles, like pods, but also armed with counter missles and laser cluster to defend the planet against incomming missles.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:1 on 1 they'd eat a Scientist for lunch unless it somehow got the drop on them within energy range. Even 2 or 3 to one, with range to play with or a target you're ultimately willing to abandon they'd bleed an attacker for little to no damage themselves. About the only thing they can't do is, while badly outnumbered, kill a swarm of SDs fast enough to keep them from reaching a target that can't run.

Upthread it was stated 4 1/2 hours from the limit to Manticore. That's far more time any ship we have seen can keep firing.

Assuming no system defense pods, Apollo, or Mycroft, the only way you get 4+ hours to engage SDs coming for Manticore is if you happen to have you forces within 65 million km of the piece of the hyper limit they emerge as so you can shadow them the whole way.

If you started in Manticore orbit you'd get much less time to engage because you'd have to accelerate out to meet them. Then if you didn't want to just get a few salvos as you blew past you have to turn over early enough to kill all your outbound velocity and match vectors. I haven't crunched the numbers but I'd bet on that course you'd only be within missile range for less than 1/4 of their total transit time.

Manticore has several huge advantages. Not the least of these is the massive amount of combat experienced Navy personnel. Then there is the recon stealth, the MDM, the ability to use the modern LACs as anti-missle defence as well as offensive weaponry, the RMN elecltronic countermeasures and the FTL commuications with all that it implies with ability to gather tactical data and then control said MDMs.

Your throwing scenarios. Another 500 SLN SDs is (well, perhaps not quite that many but still at least another Fillerlta size group), more than hinted at since there is that 2nd group staging behind Fillerta.
The readers know that it is now the GA covering Manticore. I don't quite know if Beowulf knows-and has passed on to the GA- that this second force is gathering or even if it's existance and purpose might have shown up in captured data from Fillerlta's group. What we can surmise is that while another 300 to 500 SDs (particulary if they are arriving unannounced) would be difficult for Manticore and the assisting RHN fleet, there are still a lot of current generation RMN system defence pods. What that sets up is an even worse engagement FOR BOTH SIDES if that force shows up without any early warning.
My take on that situation is that while Manticore probably survives, all three fleets are brutaly mauled. Without the set-piece disposition of the combined GA fleets the anti-missile defences are not as effective and as large if not larger force is hitting against a open stratigicly disbursed defending force so the concentrations favor the SLN and that takes a toll on the GA ships which are going to be engaged in a more piecemeal fashion as they react to the attack. Of course, that will also probably mean that fewer of the SLN ships (and their crews) survive as the defenders are more or less forced to go into a "kill what I can engage and shift to next target" there won't be a lot of surrenders being taken and a lot of what is rendered combat ineffective will have to wait a long time before anybody comes around looking for them. Presuming the GA successfully defends Manticore, searching out surviving SLN crews is going to be WAY down on their list of things to do.
Essentially this would be yet another Alignment manuver to crush Manticore (and at this point include a RHN fleet) and eradicate another significant portion of the SLN fleet and- perhaps more importantly- all those trained naval personnel. Break the League....killing all those Normals and destroying all those warships.