Remaining holes in SLN intel

cthia wrote:Why does the SLN feel they need to be present at the voting?

So they can manipulate that vote.

Loren Pechtel wrote:So they can manipulate that vote.

They would NEVER do anything like that.

"You know, comrades," says Stalin, "that I think in regard to this: I consider it completely unimportant who in the party will vote, or how; but what is extraordinarily important is this — who will count the votes, and how."

cthia wrote:If the SLN had been paying attention to everything going on in Manticore's neck of the woods, then they may have seen that their edge was quickly dissipating. If they had decided to jump on the nail, and hammer the problem before it got out of hand, at what point could they have rolled over the Haven sector?

I'm thinking right before the development of Apollo and the Ghost Rider bag of tricks.

No. The MDM was the game changer. At that point the only way for the SLN to win is exhaust Manticore's (or Haven's) magazines and that would have been awfully bloody.

Apollo simply changed the number of missiles it would take, not the fundamental issue.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

cthia wrote:Why does the SLN feel they need to be present at the voting?

So they can manipulate that vote.

How can they hope to even psychologically manipulate the vote without a real show of force? Any SLN force isn't a real show of force.

It'd be like trying to rob a bank with a known plastic gun. I'd sure like to know what force mix they sent to do the dirty deed.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

cthia wrote:If the SLN had been paying attention to everything going on in Manticore's neck of the woods, then they may have seen that their edge was quickly dissipating. If they had decided to jump on the nail, and hammer the problem before it got out of hand, at what point could they have rolled over the Haven sector?

I'm thinking right before the development of Apollo and the Ghost Rider bag of tricks.

No. The MDM was the game changer. At that point the only way for the SLN to win is exhaust Manticore's (or Haven's) magazines and that would have been awfully bloody.

Apollo simply changed the number of missiles it would take, not the fundamental issue.

I didn't think just the MDM advantage would be enough without the hellish ECM breakthroughs and Apollo to boot. Without the force multiplier, I think the 800# gorilla really did have the weight advantage, since they would also have had the intel, thus acting (planning) accordingly and sending someone who could tie their shoes and chew gum at the same time.

cthia wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:If the SLN had been paying attention to everything going on in Manticore's neck of the woods, then they may have seen that their edge was quickly dissipating. If they had decided to jump on the nail, and hammer the problem before it got out of hand, at what point could they have rolled over the Haven sector?

I'm thinking right before the development of Apollo and the Ghost Rider bag of tricks.

No. The MDM was the game changer. At that point the only way for the SLN to win is exhaust Manticore's (or Haven's) magazines and that would have been awfully bloody.

Apollo simply changed the number of missiles it would take, not the fundamental issue.

I didn't think just the MDM advantage would be enough without the hellish ECM breakthroughs and Apollo to boot. Without the force multiplier, I think the 800# gorilla really did have the weight advantage, since they would also have had the intel, thus acting (planning) accordingly and sending someone who could tie their shoes and chew gum at the same time.[/quote]

We won't ever really know, will we? In a sense, this is a slice of reality. Often there are multiple improvements that can be used.

During the naval war in the Pacific, there were a whole group of improvements (which in terms of science and technology were based on even more developments) like radar, improved planes, more accurate weapons, atomic weapons. By the very end, we saw the development of jets.

And the buildup only started late in 1939, meaning it was only about five years. The Japanese had the technical edge in late 1941. Within two to three years that had switched.

cthia wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:No. The MDM was the game changer. At that point the only way for the SLN to win is exhaust Manticore's (or Haven's) magazines and that would have been awfully bloody.

Apollo simply changed the number of missiles it would take, not the fundamental issue.

I didn't think just the MDM advantage would be enough without the hellish ECM breakthroughs and Apollo to boot. Without the force multiplier, I think the 800# gorilla really did have the weight advantage, since they would also have had the intel, thus acting (planning) accordingly and sending someone who could tie their shoes and chew gum at the same time.

It would have taken more missiles but I suspect they had the missiles. Manticore simply needs to keep the range open and keep pounding. Put a battle line 10mkm away from the Sollies and let ships behind--which can be anything that can haul a pod, it need not be only warships--keeps dropping missiles. That way the Sollies are dealing with missiles closing at around 80% of lightspeed but without the control delays that would normally cause. (We haven't seen that done in the books because it's only a good idea when you are in a position to set it up and have the range advantage to do it. I can think of only one battle where it would have been possible.)

given how little missile defence a SLN SD design has compared to even a late first war pre pod design let alone a SD(P) then nothing beyond first gen MDMs was needed to tip the balance and turn every SLN SD into a SLOW moving target.

Dauntless wrote:given how little missile defence a SLN SD design has compared to even a late first war pre pod design let alone a SD(P) then nothing beyond first gen MDMs was needed to tip the balance and turn every SLN SD into a SLOW moving target.

The Mandarins already know this. The real problem is that millions of Sollie naval people have already died. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, are prisoners.

That adds up. Now if they want to send sailors out on what are clearly going to be suicide missions...

That's why they called the Reserve a junk heap. Sailors would rebel when told they were driving into certain death and defeat.

Dauntless wrote:given how little missile defence a SLN SD design has compared to even a late first war pre pod design let alone a SD(P) then nothing beyond first gen MDMs was needed to tip the balance and turn every SLN SD into a SLOW moving target.

That depends on the target the SLN SDs are going after. If the RMN only has MDMs, no pods, no improved compensators then they have a hard time both staying out of the SLN's SDM missile envelope AND having enough time (and missiles) to erode away vast numerical superiority if the SLN comes for a target that the RMN can't abandon.

For example, if 500 Scientist and Vega class SDs came over the wall on a zero-zero intercept for Manticore itself you've got about 4 and quarter hours before they're in orbit. Having 150 or so Gryphon class SDs, even upgraded to fire MDMs, without any pods and without the accuracy boost of Apollo, you're going to have a very hard time killing enough of them to stop the SLN juggernaught.