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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:37 pm

cthia
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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:..snip..

I love how you are projecting your internalized feelings how the different personas should feel, it does get a bit tedious though.

Being arrogant doesn't mean you also are bigoted. The average citizen in the League most probably doesn't give a damn about Manticore or Beowulf. We have seen examples of arrogant and bigoted BF and FF personnel that resent Manticore - and I think you have equated their feelings with the feelings every Sollie should have.

There are certainly people in the League that hates both Manticore and Beowulf, each for it's own reasons - but so far in the books there is no indication that the Mandarins belong to that group. Well, maybe MacArtney, but he is kind of stupid and gets emotional about anything that threatens him and his fiefdom.

Also, Tsang never got back to Old Earth... Rajampet sat on her to stop her from being questioned about the secret orders.

And if a song and dance routine is your whole argument for me being wrong... Oh jeez...

cthia wrote:Oh my doggy biscuits. Ra - jam - pet is dead.
Joat42 wrote:
ART, chapter 27, excerpt wrote:"And Rajani still hasn’t managed to get Imogene Tsang to Old Chicago where we could ask her exactly what her orders in Beowulf were, either, has he?" Quartermain observed. She glanced at Kolokoltsov from the corner of one eye. "She was a hell of a lot more confrontational than she was supposed to be. I can’t help wondering if maybe her instructions—and Filareta’s—might not have included a couple of clauses we didn’t know about."

At that point they only have the written report, Tsang never got questioned in person and after that everything kind of spun of out control so they never got back to her.

So, have you re-read the book yet so you can get your facts straight?


Gees! I'm aware of that.

Rajampet was sitting on her.

Rajampet blew his brains out.

Rajampet isn't sitting anymore.

Rajampet is laying down.

Do you have to be dependent upon the author for everything? If Rajampet is dead to us, he's dead to the author. And he's dead to Tsang. Tsang knows her way back home.

I might as well be a dentist, with all of the teeth I pull.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:13 pm

cthia
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There is a certain piece of textev, sorry I can't put my finger on it, that sums up the extent of the SLN's lack of intel in a very humorous way. It was a musing of Michelle's. She had just sent a force to deal with an issue. But I think she sent a rather small force, per ship size. She said something like, paraphrasing...

"Oh my. Maybe I should have sent something bigger if I really don't want any bloodshed. It could look like I'm baiting the idiots to fight, knowing they'll think such small ships are a joke."

That's the gist of it anyway. Damn, the SLN are such idiots, Michelle has to think for them.

It's funny. Michele is worried about getting written up and a demerit put in her personnel file.

"What were you thinking sending a couple of cruisers? You know those idiots wouldn't respect that! LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:41 pm

cthia
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Some of the SLN's lack of intel on Manty hardware could be blamed on the Havenites. The Peeps were borrowing tech from the League to defeat the uppity neobarbs. That must have been an ego booster for the SLN. And it also might have been indirectly responsible for the error in judgement. After all, "The Peeps are begging for our stuff, because we are King Kong." Therefore, there was no need to be concerned about what was going on in that neck of the woods.

If the SLN had been paying attention to everything going on in Manticore's neck of the woods, then they may have seen that their edge was quickly dissipating. If they had decided to jump on the nail, and hammer the problem before it got out of hand, at what point could they have rolled over the Haven sector?

I'm thinking right before the development of Apollo and the Ghost Rider bag of tricks.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:19 pm

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cthia wrote:Some of the SLN's lack of intel on Manty hardware could be blamed on the Havenites. The Peeps were borrowing tech from the League to defeat the uppity neobarbs. That must have been an ego booster for the SLN.


The tech transfers to the PRH weren't from the SLN and of necessity were kept hidden from the SLN -- because the SLN would have had to enforce the embargo on Solarian Tech to any belligerent. (an embargo that would be to the SLN's benefit since it should have prevented the situation that eventually developed anyway.)

Some of what was sold to Haven was tech the SLN rejected, but banned sale of. Things like the missiles used in Operation Hassan.

The system defense pods Technodyne provided Monica were another SLN reject.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:28 pm

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:Some of the SLN's lack of intel on Manty hardware could be blamed on the Havenites. The Peeps were borrowing tech from the League to defeat the uppity neobarbs. That must have been an ego booster for the SLN.


The tech transfers to the PRH weren't from the SLN and of necessity were kept hidden from the SLN -- because the SLN would have had to enforce the embargo on Solarian Tech to any belligerent. (an embargo that would be to the SLN's benefit since it should have prevented the situation that eventually developed anyway.)

Some of what was sold to Haven was tech the SLN rejected, but banned sale of. Things like the missiles used in Operation Hassan.

The system defense pods Technodyne provided Monica were another SLN reject.


Thanks Harold.

Who sold it to them and are the Mandarins aware of it?

So the sentiment becomes "The neobarbs are so technologically backwards, that even our rejected tech is like Christmas in July to them."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Theemile   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:13 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:Some of the SLN's lack of intel on Manty hardware could be blamed on the Havenites. The Peeps were borrowing tech from the League to defeat the uppity neobarbs. That must have been an ego booster for the SLN.


The tech transfers to the PRH weren't from the SLN and of necessity were kept hidden from the SLN -- because the SLN would have had to enforce the embargo on Solarian Tech to any belligerent. (an embargo that would be to the SLN's benefit since it should have prevented the situation that eventually developed anyway.)

Some of what was sold to Haven was tech the SLN rejected, but banned sale of. Things like the missiles used in Operation Hassan.

The system defense pods Technodyne provided Monica were another SLN reject.


And, some of those system sold were more advanced then the SLN fielded. You know the SLN has a version of the current competition between the Military Industrial Complex - Luckup Corp won the SLN upgrade competition for Widget X because their product was cheaper and lined pockets better; Boingboing INC, meanwhile dropped big bucks into the development of their competing product that does the same thing, only slightly better.

Or the SLN reneged on both contracts when they cancelled the project altogether due to cost overruns or lack of contractural pocket padding.

So the contractors were able to recoup their costs by selling the (advanced) products to Haven under the table.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:56 pm

ldwechsler
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Theemile wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Some of the SLN's lack of intel on Manty hardware could be blamed on the Havenites. The Peeps were borrowing tech from the League to defeat the uppity neobarbs. That must have been an ego booster for the SLN.


The tech transfers to the PRH weren't from the SLN and of necessity were kept hidden from the SLN -- because the SLN would have had to enforce the embargo on Solarian Tech to any belligerent. (an embargo that would be to the SLN's benefit since it should have prevented the situation that eventually developed anyway.)

Some of what was sold to Haven was tech the SLN rejected, but banned sale of. Things like the missiles used in Operation Hassan.

The system defense pods Technodyne provided Monica were another SLN reject.


And, some of those system sold were more advanced then the SLN fielded. You know the SLN has a version of the current competition between the Military Industrial Complex - Luckup Corp won the SLN upgrade competition for Widget X because their product was cheaper and lined pockets better; Boingboing INC, meanwhile dropped big bucks into the development of their competing product that does the same thing, only slightly better.

Or the SLN reneged on both contracts when they cancelled the project altogether due to cost overruns or lack of contractural pocket padding.

So the contractors were able to recoup their costs by selling the (advanced) products to Haven under the table.[/quote]

That is another problem. The League really has no idea what its members are doing. The navy has been uninterested in improvements because it thought it was the best.

There needs to be a major change there and it will then take time to work through what is left of the League.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by kzt   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:43 pm

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ldwechsler wrote: The navy has been uninterested in improvements because it thought it was the best.

Not exactly. It knew that significant advances would force enormous and expensive changes. As David Weber has mentioned, the SLN is basically in the position of the RN if it had decided that building the HMS Dreadnought was too destabilizing and instead decided that it's ironclad battleships where just fine, as they had far more than anyone else, and instead had suddenly found that someone else gone and built 3 generations of dreadnoughts and was facing the Iowa and Yamato class ships in large numbers with a huge fleet of Trafalgar-class battleships.

In 50 years they would have gone from the unchallenged world dominant naval power to a collection of mobile targets.
Last edited by kzt on Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:45 pm

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cthia wrote:Who sold it to them and are the Mandarins aware of it?


Probably NOT Technodyne, but every arms supplier and wannabe arms supplier is a possibility.

(NOT TIY because they are complaining in textev about their inability to get any real data on Haven Sector tech.)

The Mandarins are either unaware or paid to "look the other way." They wouldn't tell the SLN in either case. Textev suggests that they are uninformed rather than on the take.

cthia wrote:So the sentiment becomes "The neobarbs are so technologically backwards, that even our rejected tech is like Christmas in July to them."


As far as the SLN is concerned, the embargo works exactly like the embargo says it works; As an organization, they know nothing. Individual SLN officers might be making a credit or six by not noticing any tech smuggling that might be passing through their sector, but they wouldn't be passing information up the command chain on whatever they weren't noticing.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by n7axw   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:43 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:Who sold it to them and are the Mandarins aware of it?


Probably NOT Technodyne, but every arms supplier and wannabe arms supplier is a possibility.

(NOT TIY because they are complaining in textev about their inability to get any real data on Haven Sector tech.)

The Mandarins are either unaware or paid to "look the other way." They wouldn't tell the SLN in either case. Textev suggests that they are uninformed rather than on the take.

cthia wrote:So the sentiment becomes "The neobarbs are so technologically backwards, that even our rejected tech is like Christmas in July to them."


As far as the SLN is concerned, the embargo works exactly like the embargo says it works; As an organization, they know nothing. Individual SLN officers might be making a credit or six by not noticing any tech smuggling that might be passing through their sector, but they wouldn't be passing information up the command chain on whatever they weren't noticing.


I think that it was Technodyne who was dealing with the Peeps under the table during the first round of their war with Manticore. Textev to that effect is from that Tech who was on that station at Monica helping with those bcs that Mesa hoped to turn loose on Manticore to drive Manticore out of the quadrant and seize the Lynx terminus. Technodyne was hoping for a first hand look at Manty hardware.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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