Remaining holes in SLN intel

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Using a neutral freighter for a covert integence gathering mission is not all that dangerous takeing one from even Beowulf through the WHJ and then going somewhere...doesn't actualy matter where, it can even just be another leg of the Junction or it can be by hyperspace somewhere.
You have optical sensors and you have electronic sensors- passive. You come though the wormhole and have everything running at max sensitivity and recording to something buffered off your sensor system.

SNIP

The SLN has got to have ONI and other black ops ships if for nothing elce that spying or OFS or BF/FF. Papers and all.
Not as good as a RMN Ghost Rider drone making a sweep but even the SLN analysts should't be able to miss all the activity and defense in depth around the Junction.

Knowing what was what at the Junction might have led them to abandon the "support mission" through the wormhole. But the mission wasn't seriously on the program anyway, until Rajampet added his secret clauses to Tsang's orders. The whole thing was just to get Beowulf on record for refusing the SLN transit, to muddy the water and "de-fang" any criticism of the Mandarins.

The problem it doesn't fix, though, is the mis-information that the Oyster Bay attack went through the systems active defenses and both destroyed a lot of the defenses, and used up a lot of missiles. That information was false, but you need a different method to test it.

A spy ship (Aviso?) might have worked for the defenses at the Junction, or before Oyster Bay changed the rules about ships approaching the planet. The drawback? There is supposed to be a circa 20 light minute range to shipboard sensors; the Junction is 7 light hours out; and all foreign traffic (aside from diplomatic vessels) conduct all their business at the Junction until further notice.

Roszak was involved in a number of covert ops, but nothing was said about covert ops specific ships. I suspect if they needed something, it was leased; or maybe, they'd have just hired mercenaries--like Monica's--for anything they needed real deniability on. I doubt they bothered much with electronic intel though; after all, who cares what ignorant nobodies are up to? More likely, slip someone like Harahap in for HUMINT/hacking. You could learn almost anything in the dockside bars. . . .

Regards,

Rob

Pardon my boldness to call attention.

Which could mean that they are only somewhat aware of Beowulf's complicity. And wanted to undeniably flush their true colors out. The Mandarins are subconsciously (deep down where they fit any profiling) considering, that cowards and or treasonous sumbitches have a distinctly colored strip down the middle of their underbellies or backs. Just the messenger.

If you truly don't think the criminal profile I've laid down of the Mandarins doesn't hit the stubborn nail with their own big SLN hammer then consider what truly would make them venture back to Beowulf with the intentions of causing bodily harm, knowing full-well that Beowulf is cavorting with the RMN -- who has them dead to rights, outclassed, outmatched, outgunned, dialed and locked in. Only blind road rage would make them throw caution to the wind, risking everything, and hypering back into such a hornet's nest simply for the sake of quelling the burning hot anger ignited by crimes of passion.

If that doesn't work for you, then there's always the 20M dead placed on exhibit B(eowulf).

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Using a neutral freighter for a covert integence gathering mission is not all that dangerous takeing one from even Beowulf through the WHJ and then going somewhere...doesn't actualy matter where, it can even just be another leg of the Junction or it can be by hyperspace somewhere.
You have optical sensors and you have electronic sensors- passive. You come though the wormhole and have everything running at max sensitivity and recording to something buffered off your sensor system.

SNIP

The SLN has got to have ONI and other black ops ships if for nothing elce that spying or OFS or BF/FF. Papers and all.
Not as good as a RMN Ghost Rider drone making a sweep but even the SLN analysts should't be able to miss all the activity and defense in depth around the Junction.

Knowing what was what at the Junction might have led them to abandon the "support mission" through the wormhole. But the mission wasn't seriously on the program anyway, until Rajampet added his secret clauses to Tsang's orders. The whole thing was just to get Beowulf on record for refusing the SLN transit, to muddy the water and "de-fang" any criticism of the Mandarins.

The problem it doesn't fix, though, is the mis-information that the Oyster Bay attack went through the systems active defenses and both destroyed a lot of the defenses, and used up a lot of missiles. That information was false, but you need a different method to test it.

A spy ship (Aviso?) might have worked for the defenses at the Junction, or before Oyster Bay changed the rules about ships approaching the planet. The drawback? There is supposed to be a circa 20 light minute range to shipboard sensors; the Junction is 7 light hours out; and all foreign traffic (aside from diplomatic vessels) conduct all their business at the Junction until further notice.

Roszak was involved in a number of covert ops, but nothing was said about covert ops specific ships. I suspect if they needed something, it was leased; or maybe, they'd have just hired mercenaries--like Monica's--for anything they needed real deniability on. I doubt they bothered much with electronic intel though; after all, who cares what ignorant nobodies are up to? More likely, slip someone like Harahap in for HUMINT/hacking. You could learn almost anything in the dockside bars. . . .

Regards,

Rob

cthia wrote:Pardon my boldness to call attention.

Which could mean that they are only somewhat aware of Beowulf's complicity. And wanted to undeniably flush their true colors out. The Mandarins are subconsciously (deep down where they fit any profiling) considering, that cowards and or treasonous sumbitches have a distinctly colored strip down the middle of their underbellies or backs. Just the messenger.

If you truly don't think the criminal profile I've laid down of the Mandarins doesn't hit the stubborn nail with their own big SLN hammer then consider what truly would make them venture back to Beowulf with the intentions of causing bodily harm, knowing full-well that Beowulf is cavorting with the RMN -- who has them dead to rights, outclassed, outmatched, outgunned, dialed and locked in. Only blind road rage would make them throw caution to the wind, risking everything, and hypering back into such a hornet's nest simply for the sake of quelling the burning hot anger ignited by crimes of passion.

If that doesn't work for you, then there's always the 20M dead placed on exhibit B(eowulf).

You know, if you just managed to re-read ART, the Mandarins reasoning would be clear to you.

There is no rage involved in their decision to mount a punitive expedition to Beowulf. They must by necessity of the political situation in the League appear to be strong and one of the first steps taken is to discredit Beowulf and then the punitive attack.

It's also a small bonus for them, since Beowulf have been a thorn in their side for a very long time.

They have also put in motion plans for commerce raiding against systems in the shell and the verge that are trading with the GA and Beowulf which will give the SLN easy victories which they can use as an argument that the SLN is still strong, but also as a warning to other systems.

Because the rational alternative, talking to Manticore and end the hostilities will make them look weak and if they look weak they will quickly lose their political influence.

They know this very well, the Mandarins discusses this in ART.

So, there is no rage attached to the decision of attacking Beowulf - it's out of necessity for the Mandarins own survival as a power factor and their belief that this will also keep the League together.

cthia wrote:If you truly don't think the criminal profile I've laid down of the Mandarins doesn't hit the stubborn nail with their own big SLN hammer then consider what truly would make them venture back to Beowulf with the intentions of causing bodily harm, knowing full-well that Beowulf is cavorting with the RMN -- who has them dead to rights, outclassed, outmatched, outgunned, dialed and locked in. Only blind road rage would make them throw caution to the wind, risking everything, and hypering back into such a hornet's nest simply for the sake of quelling the burning hot anger ignited by crimes of passion.

If that doesn't work for you, then there's always the 20M dead placed on exhibit B(eowulf).

I truly don't think the Mandarins intend to send in the SLN to murder civilians. That part of it is either a horrible mistake or sabotage.

You seem to be ignoring or forgetting the fact that the MAlign has the SLN penetrated thirteen ways from Sunday. They were able to plant a bomb on Filareta's flagship and poison his ops officer with nanotech in order to force a suicidal attack.

Absolutely nothing stops them from repeating the same trick with Admiral Tsang.

Quite simply, blaming the Mandarins for causing these Beowulfan deaths may turn out to be as unjust as blaming Michelle Henke and Manticore for what transpired on Mesa after 10th Fleet arrived.

The real question is, will the GA react on this basis or will they use the Beowulf incident as a wedge to destroy the League with?

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:If you truly don't think the criminal profile I've laid down of the Mandarins doesn't hit the stubborn nail with their own big SLN hammer then consider what truly would make them venture back to Beowulf with the intentions of causing bodily harm, knowing full-well that Beowulf is cavorting with the RMN -- who has them dead to rights, outclassed, outmatched, outgunned, dialed and locked in. Only blind road rage would make them throw caution to the wind, risking everything, and hypering back into such a hornet's nest simply for the sake of quelling the burning hot anger ignited by crimes of passion.

If that doesn't work for you, then there's always the 20M dead placed on exhibit B(eowulf).

I truly don't think the Mandarins intend to send in the SLN to murder civilians. That part of it is either a horrible mistake or sabotage.

You seem to be ignoring or forgetting the fact that the MAlign has the SLN penetrated thirteen ways from Sunday. They were able to plant a bomb on Filareta's flagship and poison his ops officer with nanotech in order to force a suicidal attack.

Absolutely nothing stops them from repeating the same trick with Admiral Tsang.

Quite simply, blaming the Mandarins for causing these Beowulfan deaths may turn out to be as unjust as blaming Michelle Henke and Manticore for what transpired on Mesa after 10th Fleet arrived.

The real question is, will the GA react on this basis or will they use the Beowulf incident as a wedge to destroy the League with?

Or what about a simple alteration of orders? Or, adding contradictory orders that guarantee that a commander will have to respond in a certain way under given (and pretty much guaranteed) set of circumstances. Or, placement of a certain type of commander (Byng, anyone) on a mission they should never be commanding due to their temperament. There are so many ways to game this to create a bad outcome, it isn't even funny.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Using a neutral freighter for a covert integence gathering mission is not all that dangerous takeing one from even Beowulf through the WHJ and then going somewhere...doesn't actualy matter where, it can even just be another leg of the Junction or it can be by hyperspace somewhere.
You have optical sensors and you have electronic sensors- passive. You come though the wormhole and have everything running at max sensitivity and recording to something buffered off your sensor system.

SNIP

The SLN has got to have ONI and other black ops ships if for nothing elce that spying or OFS or BF/FF. Papers and all.
Not as good as a RMN Ghost Rider drone making a sweep but even the SLN analysts should't be able to miss all the activity and defense in depth around the Junction.

Knowing what was what at the Junction might have led them to abandon the "support mission" through the wormhole. But the mission wasn't seriously on the program anyway, until Rajampet added his secret clauses to Tsang's orders. The whole thing was just to get Beowulf on record for refusing the SLN transit, to muddy the water and "de-fang" any criticism of the Mandarins.

The problem it doesn't fix, though, is the mis-information that the Oyster Bay attack went through the systems active defenses and both destroyed a lot of the defenses, and used up a lot of missiles. That information was false, but you need a different method to test it.

A spy ship (Aviso?) might have worked for the defenses at the Junction, or before Oyster Bay changed the rules about ships approaching the planet. The drawback? There is supposed to be a circa 20 light minute range to shipboard sensors; the Junction is 7 light hours out; and all foreign traffic (aside from diplomatic vessels) conduct all their business at the Junction until further notice.

Roszak was involved in a number of covert ops, but nothing was said about covert ops specific ships. I suspect if they needed something, it was leased; or maybe, they'd have just hired mercenaries--like Monica's--for anything they needed real deniability on. I doubt they bothered much with electronic intel though; after all, who cares what ignorant nobodies are up to? More likely, slip someone like Harahap in for HUMINT/hacking. You could learn almost anything in the dockside bars. . . .

Regards,

Rob

cthia wrote:Pardon my boldness to call attention.

Which could mean that they are only somewhat aware of Beowulf's complicity. And wanted to undeniably flush their true colors out. The Mandarins are subconsciously (deep down where they fit any profiling) considering, that cowards and or treasonous sumbitches have a distinctly colored strip down the middle of their underbellies or backs. Just the messenger.

If you truly don't think the criminal profile I've laid down of the Mandarins doesn't hit the stubborn nail with their own big SLN hammer then consider what truly would make them venture back to Beowulf with the intentions of causing bodily harm, knowing full-well that Beowulf is cavorting with the RMN -- who has them dead to rights, outclassed, outmatched, outgunned, dialed and locked in. Only blind road rage would make them throw caution to the wind, risking everything, and hypering back into such a hornet's nest simply for the sake of quelling the burning hot anger ignited by crimes of passion.

If that doesn't work for you, then there's always the 20M dead placed on exhibit B(eowulf).

Joat42 wrote:You know, if you just managed to re-read ART, the Mandarins reasoning would be clear to you.

There is no rage involved in their decision to mount a punitive expedition to Beowulf. They must by necessity of the political situation in the League appear to be strong and one of the first steps taken is to discredit Beowulf and then the punitive attack.

It's also a small bonus for them, since Beowulf have been a thorn in their side for a very long time.

They have also put in motion plans for commerce raiding against systems in the shell and the verge that are trading with the GA and Beowulf which will give the SLN easy victories which they can use as an argument that the SLN is still strong, but also as a warning to other systems.

Because the rational alternative, talking to Manticore and end the hostilities will make them look weak and if they look weak they will quickly lose their political influence.

They know this very well, the Mandarins discusses this in ART.

So, there is no rage attached to the decision of attacking Beowulf - it's out of necessity for the Mandarins own survival as a power factor and their belief that this will also keep the League together.

I know. I know. I know. No need to reread ART. The reasons you stated are all of the topical reasons they listed for doing so, in the company of each other where there has to remain some semblance of professionalism. Enough posters have pointed it out again and again. But boiling just under the skin of that is real anger from the human element of being slighted by Beowulf and being handed this entire sordid affair by uppity neobarbs, who they failed to address long time ago. Do you really believe rage isn't behind targeting and punishing their own systems for trading with Beowulf and the Manties? Incidentally, which shows that the League does indeed think of other systems as being married to them, if indeed they feel they can control where they buy their own groceries. The kind of silly control a jealous husband would attempt! The motives that I list are the real motives that the Mandarins have of the decisions they are making post BOM. They are contained in the Mandarins subconscious mind even if they are not aware of it. They are fooling themselves and all of you, but they can't fool me. The real Solarian mindset manifested itself prior to every encounter between the two giants pre BOM...

"What do you mean you're pulling your freighters out!"

"What do you mean you've seized Astro Control. Shut up! Give it back!"

The Solarians have a hardon for all things Manticoran imbibed with their mother's milk. It is ALWAYS present, whether they know what drives them or no.

They were mad as hell when Beowulf had the nerve and audacity to refuse Tsang entrance to the junction. Behind closed doors and under bed sheets they are still fuming about that one! At least Rajampet was honest enough about his feelings.

If you think the Mandarins are not mad as hell at Beowulf for cavorting with the arrogant neobarbs who just happen to be astrographically blessed by God as their only claim to fame, then you better reread all of the books yourself!

You really don't understand human nature do you? Neobarb comes out of their mouths with spittle.

cthia wrote:..snip..
If you think the Mandarins are not mad as hell at Beowulf for cavorting with the arrogant neobarbs who just happen to be astrographically blessed by God as their only claim to fame, then you better reread all of the books yourself!

You really don't understand human nature do you? Neobarb comes out of their mouths with spittle.

I understand human nature just fine.

You do know that Rajampet was a real bigot when it came to Manticore, right? If you equate that with what the Mandarins feel you are way off base.

The feelings the Mandarins has about the whole debacle with Beowulf and Filaretas failed attack can best be described as shellshocked. After that they have been scrambling to come up with a plan to survive and at no point is there an expressed hatred for Beowulf. They have cussed and on multiple occasions expressed their dislike for Beowulf because of its efforts to reform the League.

I think you fail to see how much of your own emotional reasoning about the Mandarins leak through when you say that they are mad as hell.

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:..snip..
If you think the Mandarins are not mad as hell at Beowulf for cavorting with the arrogant neobarbs who just happen to be astrographically blessed by God as their only claim to fame, then you better reread all of the books yourself!

You really don't understand human nature do you? Neobarb comes out of their mouths with spittle.

I understand human nature just fine.

You do know that Rajampet was a real bigot when it came to Manticore, right? If you equate that with what the Mandarins feel you are way off base.

The feelings the Mandarins has about the whole debacle with Beowulf and Filaretas failed attack can best be described as shellshocked. After that they have been scrambling to come up with a plan to survive and at no point is there an expressed hatred for Beowulf. They have cussed and on multiple occasions expressed their dislike for Beowulf because of its efforts to reform the League.

I think you fail to see how much of your own emotional reasoning about the Mandarins leak through when you say that they are mad as hell.

Oh come on! You can't lay all of that on Rajampet alone. They are all bigots against neobarbs. Hence, the derogatory term...
n-e-o-b-a-r-b-s. Rajampet was simply the one wearing it on his sleeves.

Shell-shocked, on top of being angry. Holding on to their bigotry and hatred for all things Manticoran does not displace any emotional space for being shell-shocked. It is all simply burnt gravy.

Listen Joat. Pour yourself your favorite beverage. I want you to really hear this. Sit down.

Walk on the road, huh?

Walk left side, safe.

Walk right side, safe.

Walk middle, sooner or later squish! Just like grape. Here SL same thing.

Either all Solarians hate all Manticorans and it will spill onto anyone else who doesn't. Or the SL loves all Manties and everyone else who sees it the Manties way.

Walk down middle, as only aware of it sometimes. Squish just like grape.

Look eye! Look eye!

Understand?


Tsang got to Beowulf, not really expecting she was going to need her secret orders. Not really. Tsang herself said that. She was surprised that someone actually got that right. You know why she didn't expect it? Their arrogance existed across the board of the SLN, the SL and its citizens against the uppity neobarbs. It is the true meaning of "institutional arrogance." It is an institution, of citizens, officers, Mandarins, freighter captains, etc., etc. In everything that they are, think, smell, eat, or do.

And then, to Tsangs' bewilderment, Beowulf refused her entrance. To add insult to injury, they allowed Manticorsn technology into Beowulfan space. (The SLN doesn't give aratsass about what any legal statues says about the jurisdiction of territorial space about a junction. That only matters if it is one of your junctions.) The RMN also had FTL platforms strewn about Beowulfan space. Period.

On top of that, Manticoran units were allowed to hide in stealth in Beowulfan space! Without Beowulf bothering to inform Tsang immediately after she arrived! Making Tsang look stupid to her own navy in front of neobarbs. Tsang raised holy hell when she got back to Old Earth. And it's being discussed in private circles like a leper! Damn straight she tried to follow through with her secret orders. I'm sure she was pissed enough, even if she hadn't yet heard that the Manties were already there!

cthia wrote:

Joat42 wrote:..snip..
If you think the Mandarins are not mad as hell at Beowulf for cavorting with the arrogant neobarbs who just happen to be astrographically blessed by God as their only claim to fame, then you better reread all of the books yourself!

You really don't understand human nature do you? Neobarb comes out of their mouths with spittle.

I understand human nature just fine.

You do know that Rajampet was a real bigot when it came to Manticore, right? If you equate that with what the Mandarins feel you are way off base.

The feelings the Mandarins has about the whole debacle with Beowulf and Filaretas failed attack can best be described as shellshocked. After that they have been scrambling to come up with a plan to survive and at no point is there an expressed hatred for Beowulf. They have cussed and on multiple occasions expressed their dislike for Beowulf because of its efforts to reform the League.

I think you fail to see how much of your own emotional reasoning about the Mandarins leak through when you say that they are mad as hell.

Oh come on! You can't lay all of that on Rajampet alone. They are all bigots against neobarbs. Hence, the derogatory term...
n-e-o-b-a-r-b-s. Rajampet was simply the one wearing it on his sleeves.

Shell-shocked, on top of being angry. Holding on to their bigotry and hatred for all things Manticoran does not displace any emotional space for being shell-shocked. It is all simply burnt gravy.

Listen Joat. Pour yourself your favorite beverage. I want you to really hear this. Sit down.

Walk on the road, huh?

Walk left side, safe.

Walk right side, safe.

Walk middle, sooner or later squish! Just like grape. Here SL same thing.

Either all Solarians hate all Manticorans and it will spill onto anyone else who doesn't. Or the SL loves all Manties and everyone else who sees it the Manties way.

Walk down middle, as only aware of it sometimes. Squish just like grape.

Look eye! Look eye!

Understand?


Tsang got to Beowulf, not really expecting she was going to need her secret orders. Not really. Tsang herself said that. She was surprised that someone actually got that right. You know why she didn't expect it? Their arrogance existed across the board of the SLN, the SL and its citizens against the uppity neobarbs. It is the true meaning of "institutional arrogance." It is an institution, of citizens, officers, Mandarins, freighter captains, etc., etc. In everything that they are, think, smell, eat, or do.

And then, to Tsangs' bewilderment, Beowulf refused her entrance. To add insult to injury, they allowed Manticorsn technology into Beowulfan space. (The SLN doesn't give aratsass about what any legal statues says about the jurisdiction of territorial space about a junction. That only matters if it is one of your junctions.) The RMN also had FTL platforms strewn about Beowulfan space. Period.

On top of that, Manticoran units were allowed to hide in stealth in Beowulfan space! Without Beowulf bothering to inform Tsang immediately after she arrived! Making Tsang look stupid to her own navy in front of neobarbs. Tsang raised holy hell when she got back to Old Earth. And it's being discussed in private circles like a leper! Damn straight she tried to follow through with her secret orders. I'm sure she was pissed enough, even if she hadn't yet heard that the Manties were already there![/quote]

Again, Beowulf did the right thing. The SLN was wrong. The Mandarins were wrong.

It was decided about 70 years ago that "I was just following orders" was not a good legal defense.

Rajampet was paid off by the Alignment. While the Mandarins are obviously not guilt free in the matter, it was Kolokoltzov's (sp) intent for Tsang to back off when refused admission to the junction. Rajampet is the origin of the secret orders that Tsang was to engage Beowulf's navy if Beowulf refused to stand down and let her pass.

Don

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n7axw wrote:Rajampet was paid off by the Alignment. While the Mandarins are obviously not guilt free in the matter, it was Kolokoltzov's (sp) intent for Tsang to back off when refused admission to the junction. Rajampet is the origin of the secret orders that Tsang was to engage Beowulf's navy if Beowulf refused to stand down and let her pass.

Don

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Corruption is corruption. MAlign arranged for Byng to be at New Tuscany. Kingsford wonders why Rajampat gave the order, why the head of Frontier Fleet accepted it, and why Byng took it.

Crandall knew what her job was. The Mandarins didn't but she knew.

The problem is when everyone is corrupt, things can sink very fast.