BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

Hate to say it Cthia, but even the Mandarins know they were going way beyond the constitution when they launched Raging Justice.

What was the quote, "It means what we want it to mean"

pappilon wrote:

cthia wrote:It is ironic that Beowulf warned the Manties that the juggernaut was coming but the Manties didn't warn Beowulf that sharing that bit of inside information would also mean the juggernaut would be coming. It is what a true friend would do.

Of course, Beowulf should have known.

IIRC (dubious at best), Manticore did warn them, even offered to set SDs around near the hyper limit. Was mentioned during the Royal Wedding. It was the decision of the Planetary Board of Directors to not accept the aid because it would give the appearance of coercion to the coming plebescite.

The Government of Beowulf took its chances, gambling that the installation of Mycroft would arrive before Battle Fleet. They tossed the dice and came up a cropper.

I think that Beowulf was fully aware of the potential consequences as Jacques' conversation with Honor at the wedding implies.

You guys seem to be treating all of this as accomplished fact. Remember that until we have actual textev or Canon from RFC, all you are doing is speculating about what will happen when the SLN shows up at Beowulf.

Don

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Annachie wrote:Hate to say it Cthia, but even the Mandarins know they were going way beyond the constitution when they launched Raging Justice.

What was the quote, "It means what we want it to mean"

The League's constitution was completely unworkable. Prior to the Mandarin's confrontation with Beowulf, the general attitude was "so what".

Don

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Annachie wrote:Hate to say it Cthia, but even the Mandarins know they were going way beyond the constitution when they launched Raging Justice.

What was the quote, "It means what we want it to mean"

I think I remember textev corroborating your statement. Yet they went ahead and did it anyway. I would wager that it was not unfamiliar territory to the Mandarins. Par for the course even. With the kind of power that they wield, it is much easier instead of asking permission before the fact, they ask for forgiveness after, for adding the lucrative fees of the MWJ to the Solarian economy.

Just so's we're on the same page, it wasn't way beyond their
[C c]onstitution.

pappilon wrote:

cthia wrote:It is ironic that Beowulf warned the Manties that the juggernaut was coming but the Manties didn't warn Beowulf that sharing that bit of inside information would also mean the juggernaut would be coming. It is what a true friend would do.

Of course, Beowulf should have known.

IIRC (dubious at best), Manticore did warn them, even offered to set SDs around near the hyper limit. Was mentioned during the Royal Wedding. It was the decision of the Planetary Board of Directors to not accept the aid because it would give the appearance of coercion to the coming plebescite.

The Government of Beowulf took its chances, gambling that the installation of Mycroft would arrive before Battle Fleet. They tossed the dice and came up a cropper.

What is the textev for your proposal that Beowulf's bet failed badly?

cthia wrote:Crimes of passion are made between peoples!

Can only be made between people. IOW, no one else could have hurt me like you did. As in, I lowered my guard and opened my heart and myself up only to you.

Only Delilah was told of Samson's weakness. The traitorous bitch! Beowulf is the spurned Delilah who seeks vengeance by misusing her intel, thus ends up regretting the horrible consequences. There are 20M reasons Beowulf should not have scorned its former lover.

cthia wrote:

Annachie wrote:Hate to say it Cthia, but even the Mandarins know they were going way beyond the constitution when they launched Raging Justice.

What was the quote, "It means what we want it to mean"

I think I remember textev corroborating your statement. Yet they went ahead and did it anyway. I would wager that it was not unfamiliar territory to the Mandarins. Par for the course even. With the kind of power that they wield, it is much easier instead of asking permission before the fact, they ask for forgiveness after, for adding the lucrative fees of the MWJ to the Solarian economy.

Just so's we're on the same page, it wasn't way beyond their
[C c]onstitution.

Cthia,
It has been kind of fun watching you twist tails, a bit, and I was going to go looking for infodumps and text to refute your arguments. But it has actually been a worthwhile exercise in some ways. Not in your roleplay--you get a bit excessive, which got responses, but not always to your point. But in looking at the Mandarins from the inside of their environment. Here are a few starting points.

1) The current Mandarins are in a political system that has existed for over 900 years--they didn't invent it, or attempt to change it. While they didn't have a Constitution anyone was looking at, they did operate based on traditions, customs, and expectations (including expectations of graft) that derived from that history (ok, a history of evading responsibility, and foiling attempts to rein in their abuse of power, but it's still their history)
2) They are not as incompetent as they appear, when faced with more familiar challenges--or they wouldn't have made it to the top of their political food chains.
3) Although it is more obvious in the "First Families of the Navy," the entire bureaucracy is riddled with nepotism. In that way, the agencies of the League are very like the Verge hereditary oligarchies they sneer at.
4)I think the only one of them portrayed as truly stupid enough to embrace the "treason" argument would have been McCartney; but in their reality NONE of them expected the actions Tsang took at Beowulf. What had been a political maneuver of manipulating the public debate(as a contingency to deflect post-operation criticism from League Members) blew up in their faces with the destruction of 11th Fleet; but their maneuver's consequences (Beowulf's secession) never even occurred to any of them as a remote possibility. ]It did occur to the Malign, which is why the clause was inserted in Tsang's orders.] And, at least so far, only Kolokoltsov is even seriously aware that they might not win.

Oh, and as an aside--the "marriage" argument doesn't work for me, as Beowulf has had the same government --popularly elected and supported--for a thousand years longer than the League has been avoiding having real elections. Beowulf was by far the senior partner. Or, if you must put it in terms of intimacy, she left an abusive, but adult, child.

Rob

Some wives are guilty of making the same mistakes that Beowulf did. She proceeds to file for divorce on the grounds that it is her right. But her best friend warns her that it isn't about rights. "It is about what you know the kind of man you married expects out of you and what he will do when he finds out. He's gonna kill you!"

The law is not set up to protect the wife in these instances. "You don't understand officer. As soon as my husband finds out I am leaving him, I am dead."

"You have a right to divorce him."

"It isn't about rights officer, you don't know him like I do."

"If he does anything rash, we'll arrest him."

"But, but, but... I'll still be dead."

If some wives had my Driver's Ed teacher, they would have known to proceed (with their divorce plans) with caution and seek some sort of protective shelter before filing for divorce. But the law requires you to remain in your present circumstance until the divorce is final, exposing oneself to reprisals.

Beowulf did seek protective shelter. But they angered the husband even further by seeking shelter from the other man she was illegally in bed with.


The entire fiasco with Beowulf and the League totally reminds me of the relationship between Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes. Everybody knows that Jamie Foxx is Katie's Manticore, and that they've been seeing each other for years now. But they keep it hush hush, for what Tom would do if she rubs his face in it and displays it all for the world to see. Life oftentimes provide us with the image to capture on canvas.

cthia wrote:

Annachie wrote:Hate to say it Cthia, but even the Mandarins know they were going way beyond the constitution when they launched Raging Justice.

What was the quote, "It means what we want it to mean"

I think I remember textev corroborating your statement. Yet they went ahead and did it anyway. I would wager that it was not unfamiliar territory to the Mandarins. Par for the course even. With the kind of power that they wield, it is much easier instead of asking permission before the fact, they ask for forgiveness after, for adding the lucrative fees of the MWJ to the Solarian economy.

Just so's we're on the same page, it wasn't way beyond their
[C c]onstitution.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Cthia,
It has been kind of fun watching you twist tails, a bit, and I was going to go looking for infodumps and text to refute your arguments. But it has actually been a worthwhile exercise in some ways. Not in your roleplay--you get a bit excessive, which got responses, but not always to your point. But in looking at the Mandarins from the inside of their environment. Here are a few starting points.

1) The current Mandarins are in a political system that has existed for over 900 years--they didn't invent it, or attempt to change it. While they didn't have a Constitution anyone was looking at, they did operate based on traditions, customs, and expectations (including expectations of graft) that derived from that history (ok, a history of evading responsibility, and foiling attempts to rein in their abuse of power, but it's still their history)
2) They are not as incompetent as they appear, when faced with more familiar challenges--or they wouldn't have made it to the top of their political food chains.
3) Although it is more obvious in the "First Families of the Navy," the entire bureaucracy is riddled with nepotism. In that way, the agencies of the League are very like the Verge hereditary oligarchies they sneer at.
4)I think the only one of them portrayed as truly stupid enough to embrace the "treason" argument would have been McCartney; but in their reality NONE of them expected the actions Tsang took at Beowulf. What had been a political maneuver of manipulating the public debate(as a contingency to deflect post-operation criticism from League Members) blew up in their faces with the destruction of 11th Fleet; but their maneuver's consequences (Beowulf's secession) never even occurred to any of them as a remote possibility. ]It did occur to the Malign, which is why the clause was inserted in Tsang's orders.] And, at least so far, only Kolokoltsov is even seriously aware that they might not win.

Oh, and as an aside--the "marriage" argument doesn't work for me, as Beowulf has had the same government --popularly elected and supported--for a thousand years longer than the League has been avoiding having real elections. Beowulf was by far the senior partner. Or, if you must put it in terms of intimacy, she left an abusive, but adult, child.

Rob

You're doing it again Bob. The obsession with Beowulf is not my own.

"Solarian League, I am not your wife! You don't own me!"

"The hell I don't woman! We've been seeing each other for centuries! Do you have any idea what I've done for you! Forsaken for you! Spent on you! Jumped through hoops in order to protect you!"

"You did that out of obligation and the kindness of your heart!"

"Is that what you thought?"

"I have a bf you idiot. Been seeing him for years. His name is Manticore."

"Manticore!? The same jumped up arrogant Manticore that you know I've hated for centuries??!!"

"Yes! That Manticore! He's actually here in the system cavorting with me right now. Come out from behind the camera honey."

"Hi there! Nana nana na na! "

"See? And legally you don't have a leg to stand on. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!"

"I have some warships I can stand on and come and smoke you, you bitch!"

And that's one of the cautions my Driver's Ed teacher was warning us about. Some idiot driving on the highway alongside you for hours who think you're in a relationship because you waved at him and let him buy you coffee at a rest stop. Some people simply don't get that their idea of the relationship hasn't even an inkling of resemblance to the truth. And now he has road rage! Knock on wood if you've never been there!

And if he gets a sympathetic judge, "I have determined that the two of you were in a Common-law marriage, because you knew full-well what he expected out of you and the relationship. And you stayed anyway, reaping the benefits."

And of course, if she survives to see the divorce through, the husband may be awarded some of the lucrative WHJ fees. If he has proof that she'd been illegally cavorting, that figure will be high.

That's life handed to you by law of the human element.

Please keep in mind that I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot my Dispatch Boat.

I agree with you there. McCartney is the one who thinks they may have a legal leg to stand on as a loophole in the Constitution—de facto state of war, endangering the lives of Solarian citizens in their complicity with the enemy, malfeasance, and many more Solarian yatta yatta yattas.

But I think all of them feel Beowulf was morally treasonous to the implied relationship between people.*

"Regardless of what the legal letter of the law may say, you know what you did was wrong, as per our unspoken private relationship, you bitch!"

"I (League) may lose the case in court because we failed to get certain agreements written on paper. But you know what you did! And you know the implications of the mechanics of the relationship and what was unspoken between us that we morally agreed on. And I'm gonna getcha. Look out girl, I'm gonna getcha!"

They don't condone Tsang's actions, no. But that doesn't change the fact that Tsang wouldn't have had to make a stupid decision had it not been for Beowulf. And that Tsang was also looking at the bigger picture, the lives of Solarian citizens and not those of neobarbs. (Bracketing for a moment what we as readers actually knew was waiting on the other side of the junction.)

*The kind of indiscretion that evokes blind rage and 20M crimes of passion.

Evoking a reader's literary license to read between the lines of the 20M who are going to die on Beowulf, phillies.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I think the only one of them portrayed as truly stupid enough to embrace the "treason" argument would have been McCartney; but in their reality NONE of them expected the actions Tsang took at Beowulf. What had been a political maneuver of manipulating.