phillies wrote:We would of course need the League Constitution, all of it, which we do not have, but I do not believe that your argument holds water.
I really like this post. It comes very close to the bank of the river of truth. It is struggling against the current, but I can see a lot of the elements of reality in the boat, they've simply become a bit juggled and misconstrued by the raging rapids that is reality to the Mandarins. I'll attempt to correct that. I provided a copy of the League Constitution in a previous post. I did get that memo.
phillies wrote:First, in our world at least, crimes are crimes by people. We do not have in our world a notion that a notion can commit a crime. The notion that Beowulf as a planet can commit treason makes no more sense than the claim that Luxembourg can commit treason, at least in terms of current law. When at the end of World War 2 Germans were punished for crimes and executed, a recycle of the World War One War Crimes trials that people tend to forget, it was individual military officers, individual government officials, and one (that I recall) private citizen who were variously tried for crimes against humanity and/or crimes against peace, convicted, and executed. Germany was not tried,.
At least you made contact with the ball phillies. Alas, it was a foul. It's that damn
human element again. One of my teachers once told me "You have an uncanny ability to be the character. Don't ever lose that."
Crimes
are crimes by people. Crimes are also crimes committed
unto people. Crimes can be committed unto people unwittingly and unbeknownst. We can fatally offend someone and be killed, without ever having a clue as to why we are dead. Again I hear the gist of my Driver's Ed teacher's sentiment...
"It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong. You are still dead!"
20M BEOWULFANS ARE STILL DEAD.
I found his teaching to apply to life in general as well.
phillies wrote:"We do not have in our world a notion that a notion can commit a crime."
Yes we do! And it is at the heart of the crux of my argument which has its roots in the human element. If you fail to grasp it, you'll never see the reality of the discussion.
Or of life. And failing to understand it can lead to death or dismemberment. Death
and dismemberment for Beowulf. A large majority of crimes are committed against
people. The crime may not actually be a specific statue on the books. If I offend my neighbor next door because of nothing I did
legally wrong, but it was very offensive to him
personally, so much so that he is passionate about it to the point that he murders me, it was a crime. A crime against my neighbor and his sensibilities, first! People kill! Transgressed laws don't. It won't matter to you who are now six feet under that it wasn't a transgression against an actual statue on the books. It matters to the one who is going to put you and maybe even your entire family six feet under.
A group of friends and I were walking downtown in one particular city one day. One of those colleagues was having trouble with the caps on his front teeth. He had been taking his thumb and doing some sort of flicking gesture that he says helped with the discomfort. He had been doing that for hours. A couple of cops walked up to him and was livid. Passionately livid about what they took as a racist gesture against Italian cops. Apparently the thumb flick of the two front teeth is a racist gesture akin to flipping Italians off? The cops were highly enraged. And I can assure you, the dumbfounded look on my colleague's face was genuine.
Notions can kill!
Wearing the wrong colors in the right neighborhood is a crime against certain gangs,
under their laws. You don't have to agree with them, or accept them, to be killed by them. But if you want to live, you should
at least be aware of them. Human nature and the human element is real. And it can and will kill.
Brigade XO wrote:In this line of discussion, divorce is a straw-man argument (well, make that TarBaby). It doesn't apply but is an interesting take on the subject.
I used it to make a point because a lot of the same human elements apply. It serves its purpose if it brings you around, at least to the entrance, to the right mindset.
Why is it that a wife, or girlfriend, really shouldn't have sex with a best friend, even
after separation or divorce? Or with someone who has always been despised by the husband? After all, it isn't a crime for the ex to fall in love with the best friend, or enemy. No, it isn't. But it
is a crime to human nature and human sensibilities. In fact, to some people, it is the worst possible thing a woman, or even a man can do. Talk about a scorned spouse that will kill the wife and her new man! For what? "For rubbing his face in the worst possible shit you can do to him, in his mind!"
Crimes of passion are not committed against the law. They are committed against people! The crime is so serious that it will get someone stabbed 99 times long after the victim was dead!
20M Beowulfans dead sounds like a crime of passion.
phillies wrote:Second, it would interesting to learn whether the League has a crime "treason" and if so what it is defined to be. There are bits of the American definition being slipped into this argument, with no textev that I recall that the definition is relevant.
You are being tossed around in the boat of truth by the raging rapids again. The definition of treason to be used is the universal one accepted by specific people. Wherever, or whoever they are. If the Mandarins feel it was treason, then to the Mandarins it was treason. Beowulf should heed that. They certainly knew the gorilla would perceive it that way. It isn't about rights, legalities or Constitutions. Crimes of passion are made between peoples!
phillies wrote:The notion that Beowulf committed treason appears unlikely to have merit. They appear to have moved to rpevent actions that plausibly are crimes in the League, such as waging a a war of aggression, form being committed. If Filaretta's command deck had not been sabotaged, Beowulf would have succeeded in preventing an illegal war. While ti has been years since I read the book in question, I do not recall that it was specified that it was the Beowulf government that activated the extremely hidden back channel, as opposed to some lower-level person doing so. But perhaps I have forgotten.
With respect to casualties, 20 million people being killed is a bad thing, but relative to casualties that some countries endured in World War 2 without surrendering, including countries that were on the winning side, 20 million dead is rather minimal.
My point is that it has merit to the Mandarins and the gorilla they control. Dead right or dead wrong guys. We must drive for the other idiots on the highway of life as well. I'm hearing my mother's teachings...
"We must be mindful of others!"
phillies wrote:We would of course need the League Constitution, all of it, which we do not have, but I do not believe that your argument holds water.
First, in our world at least, crimes are crimes by people. We do not have in our world a notion that a notion can commit a crime. The notion that Beowulf as a planet can commit treason makes no more sense than the claim that Luxembourg can commit treason, at least in terms of current law. When at the end of World War 2 Germans were punished for crimes and executed, a recycle of the World War One War Crimes trials that people tend to forget, it was individual military officers, individual government officials, and one (that I recall) private citizen who were variously tried for crimes against humanity and/or crimes against peace, convicted, and executed. Germany was not tried,.
Second, it would interesting to learn whether the League has a crime "treason" and if so what it is defined to be. There are bits of the American definition being slipped into this argument, with no textev that I recall that the definition is relevant.
The notion that Beowulf committed treason appears unlikely to have merit. They appear to have moved to rpevent actions that plausibly are crimes in the League, such as waging a a war of aggression, form being committed. If Filaretta's command deck had not been sabotaged, Beowulf would have succeeded in preventing an illegal war. While ti has been years since I read the book in question, I do not recall that it was specified that it was the Beowulf government that activated the extremely hidden back channel, as opposed to some lower-level person doing so. But perhaps I have forgotten.
With respect to casualties, 20 million people being killed is a bad thing, but relative to casualties that some countries endured in World War 2 without surrendering, including countries that were on the winning side, 20 million dead is rather minimal.
cthia wrote:Dca wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Alice's action preventing Tsang from transiting the Beowulf wormhole came ar the moment of Filaretas attack, which was WAY after the black channel leak. Which does not speak to the troll of "TREASON!" Treason is about aid to enemies, which is still missing that darned declaration of war. I'm confident that won't be a problem for Tyrone Reid and company, but so what? The whole concept of treason implies a body worthy of respect and adherence, which the SL is (mostly) sorely lacking.
How did Beowulf not aid? And how are the Manties not League enemies?
Distance yourself as a reader who hates all things Mandarin. Beowulf was complicit.
in the face of a dying superpower!
