BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

cthia wrote:

joat42 wrote:Explain in detail how Beowulf was complicit, because so far you haven't managed to produce one coherent argument why they where complicit.

Because you are still making this personal about cthia. Old habits die hard.

You don't want to see all of the truth. You like Beowulf and you abhor what the League has become because of the Mandarins. I do too. Yet there are two sides to every coin and I'm looking at them both.

When you want to look at both sides of the coin you have to make sure you have the facts straight, because you are missing a few things.

cthia wrote:Again, Beowulf took the moral high ground. They were sick of being in bed with the League. I don't blame them there. But they had an obligation to do it properly. Beowulf did not, they made a few mistakes along the way. Crucial mistakes, IMO.

Elaborate what mistakes they did?

cthia wrote:As I've stated before and it continues, many of you are discounting the implied and unspoken responsibility Beowulf has to the League. Now that I've been reminded that Beowulf was a founder, that point is magnified. Remember, the League wasn't always corrupt, they stood for something good. They adopted an Edict to punish those who would use advanced technology to cause unthinkable deaths to unwitting planets. The League was once the eyes, ears and conscience of the galaxy. Beowulf was more than happy to be a part of that and so they helped found an entity. Willingly! Beowulf was respectful to that entity when they were all just young adults growing up and finding their way, long before the League became corrupt. There is no way that Beowulf would have practiced any actions that could have been misconstrued as traitorous to the League it help create, in the formative years of its founding.

Can you point to one thing that Beowulf did that was treasonous and back it up with facts?

cthia wrote:Really, adopting the stance that it is impossible for Beowulf to commit treason against the League because of the reality of their relationship is absurd. Also, I do not cotton to the notion that the relationship between the two is anything like NATO or any of the other comparisons. NATO does not contain the intimacy of its partners that the League had with Beowulf, but even within NATO there exists the concept of traitor. Old Earth and Beowulf are no strangers to each other. They all hail from the same neighborhood, inasmuch as they've been playing on the same block for centuries. The League considers Beowulf as one of them, not just part of them. The Mandarins would never, have never, will never, consider BEOWULF as neobarbs.

Therein is where Beowulf screwed the pooch. "We're sick of the League. Let's get out."

"Fine, but let's do it properly. After all, we owe an unspoken allegiance to the billions of innocent citizens of the entity we help found in order to protect those same citizens AND US from unthinkable atrocities meted out onto unsuspecting, innocent citizens up to and including an Eridani Edict violation from unscrupulous amoral cowards from space."

So Beowulf decided to finally take the moral high ground and divorce the League like they've been meaning to do for quite some time because the Mandarins, who were elected, had become corrupt criminals. Yet, the billions of citizens under their responsibility had not become corrupt. They were all innocent pawns. Beowulf had a responsibility to those billions of lives that they help found a barrier of protection to help keep safe and sound, as well.

What? When did the Mandarins become elected?

cthia wrote:When Beowulf decided to hand the playbook of the League over to the Manties, I question that from the POV of the Mandarins AS WELL AS THE LIVES OF THE INNOCENT CITIZENS OF THE LEAGUE. If you are going to get in the middle of a dispute, it is wrong to grab and hold one combatant (and or even assist them by giving them pointers and words of encouragement) while the other pummels them.

So you would rather have Beowulf say nothing and allow Filareta attack a sovereign star nation and in the process allow countless lives be lost, both Solarian and Manticorians.
So you would rather have had Beowulf allow Imogene Tsang the use of the MWHJ to transport her taskforce into certain death?
ANY reasonable person will try to hinder a bloodshed, and by telling Manticore about the SLN attack there was a good chance that bloodshed could be avoided.

cthia's stance:
When Beowulf told the Manties that the juggernaut was coming, whether you all will admit it or not, it was to help prevent Manticoran deaths. Manticore had just been attacked by the Alignment, which gutted their naval support structure and they hadn't completely recovered from the Battle of Manticore. A formal fleet had not been dispatched from the League and no one really knew if there would be any new surprises. There was fear, REAL FEAR of Beowulf's that the Manties would be harmed. After all, this was the 800# juggernaut that the entire galaxy had been so afraid of for centuries, who were rolling in thunder towards the Manties, representing the entity that they helped found.

No, it was to stop any bloodshed at all.

But where was the same moral consideration and obligation for the lives of the innocent victims that would undoubtedly be snuffed out in the SLN? A navy that Beowulf knew was headed towards Manticore. A navy that contained innocent lives that they had once pledged to protect by the sheer definition of the design they helped found. Beowulf had plenty of time to do the right thing and tell the Mandarins that they had informed the Manties that they were coming and a formal welcoming party had been assembled to receive them! Beowulf didn't do that. They left that up to the neobarbs that they had befriended. Beowulf should have known, and they did, that the Mandarins would not listen to anything from neobarbs. But the Mandarins don't consider Beowulf as neobarbs, which is why that revelation should have come from them -- if saving lives is truly behind Bewoulf's actions -- but it didn't. Beowulf helped set the SLN up, along with all of those innocent lives who were simply following orders. By definition, implied or otherwise, the lives that Beowulf was supposed to protect were the lives of the innocent citizens of the League, of which they helped found! Beowulf knew that any attempts of the RMN or Manticore to head off the juggernaut would simply be dismissed by the gorilla as posturing, bluffing or fear. It is all that is available at the hands of backwoods neobarbs who are frightened of dying. BEOWULF should have informed the Mandarins that a trap had been set. They informed the Manties of the juggernauts plans. Beowulf should have either conscientiously objected to go along the plan and completely stayed out of it, or do the right thing and inform on both parties -- even if they were not going to be concerned with the innocent lives of the entity of which they helped form.

Deciding to go all in in preventing the SLN from using the junction wasn't simply out of some altruistic concern of Beowulf's of SLN lives. It was FEAR! Sure, the SLN may have had no chance in 1001 tries to defeat the RMN on that day either, perhaps, maybe, even with that Demon Murphy's help. But they did have a very real chance of killing many Manticorans out of surprise and unpreparedness. Manticorans who could have been their spouses, sons and daughters. Among which could have been the Salamander herself who died.

But where was the same passionate concern for the innocent lives that should also have existed for their own founding?

FFS, how about you read the books so you know what you are talking about.

First, there was no fear involved at all - that's just you projecting.

Second, Beowulf had no legal obligations at all to allow SLN units use the MWHJ since the SLN CAN'T force a League member to do something they don't want to unless there is war declared. Article Five of the Constitution specifically denies the federal government authority to dictate to system governments in time of peace. Further, the MWHJ is the sovereign property of Manticore and Beowulf can't unilaterally decide to allow foreign warships its use.

Third, since Filerata took his sweet time to get to Manticore the story about Raging Justice was all over the news and newsies where flocking to Manticore. Manticore would not have been unprepared even if Beowulf didn't pass the information along.

Fourth, the Mandarins have knowingly for centuries worked around the constitution and they know that their actions are illegal.

Fifth, do you think the Mandarins would have listened to anyone saying it was a trap? I doubt it, since they already didn't trust Beowulf - because Beowulf wouldn't give in to the Mandarins. Also, Manticore have been trying to set up talks with the League but the league have consistently ignored them.

And you are saying that Beowulf is traitorous because they are one of the few league members upholding the constitution? Or hindering illegal actions being perpetrated on a friendly nation?

The first ones using the word treason for Beowulfs action are the Mandarins desperately trying the salvage the political disaster that Filaretas crushing defeat and Tsangs aborted attempt to use the MWHJ spawned. And if you are saying that Beowulf actions where treasonous you swallowed the Mandarins political spin doctoring completely.

As I said earlier, read the books again if you can't remember the facts.

Citha rightly points out that Beowulf is semi complicit in what the OFS has been doing by not leaving sooner or doing more then trying to get the chamber of stars to act.

but lets be realistic what could they do? they are one planet in the middle of SL space. Yes they have the money due to the termni of MWHJ but they are already deemed dangerous werido dogooders for having a competent SDF and attempting to follow the constitution. they have a couple of dozen SDs, powerful but hardly the hundreds that would have been needed to stand up to battle fleet prior to the MDM/ SD(P) age.

so they did what they could trying to rein in the biggest excess.

when they found out that the league was going to do something incredibly stupid and likely get millions of its sailors killed, they warned the target. knowing that said target with this warning would likely set a trap that should result in no loss of life, but the embarrassment of having a couple of hundred SDs surrender, after the fiasco of spindle, should have made the chance to make the senate DO SOMETHING!! to curtail the reach/ability of the mandarins. (which is probably what would have happened barring Malign intervention. then again without Malign intervention then no new tusany, no spindle and no second manticore)

their other choice was find someone in ONI with a brain and would be listened to and say "you know that neo-barb navy on the other side of our termius has revolutionised warfare and the SLNs ships are just moving targets. SLOW moving targets".

now yes the mandrains if they knew about passing intel might call it treason but they simply say we've sent intel reports to you for years if you didn't know what you were facing that is your fault. yes we warned them so as to save lives as a manties first reaction to a threat to the home system is to kill it! leak that to the press and the mandrains couldn't touch them.

Dauntless wrote:Citha rightly points out that Beowulf is semi complicit in what the OFS has been doing by not leaving sooner or doing more then trying to get the chamber of stars to act.

I would not call it complicit because they have been fighting tooth and nail to change the ways of the League and the Mandarins for centuries.

What do you think would have happened if Beowulf had seceded from the League a century ago? Do you think the removal of Beowulf's moderating input would have changed the behavior of the OFS to the better or would it have been worse?

I would say that removing yourself from the League instead of trying to reform it is the wrong thing to do (unless you just do nothing). At least up until the point it's no longer possible to reform it.

How about people start thinking about the big picture instead of focusing on specific events, because a myopic perspective leads to all kinds of boring and incorrect reasoning.

what moderating influence? they've been ignored for quite some time. not just the last decade or two.

that said I agree that staying and trying to fix was the best option at the time but it is clear that rot set in long ago and only the fact that someone is FINALLY able to stand up to SLN and say NO and make it stick is what makes leaving a serious option.

before SEM developed that ability it was pointless to leave as while they were members someone might wake up and realise things have gone to hell and beowulf would happy to help them try to fix things.

as non-members they couldn't even attempt to do that

all that doesn't change the fact as part of the SL when these acts happend some of the blood is on their hands, now Beowulf has long recognised this hence its efforts to fix things.

cthia wrote:

n7axw wrote:Beowulf has long been a critic of the League from within. Its delegation has witnessed against League policies for years from the forum of the Assembly.

If there is any moral argument that can cogently be leveled against Beowulf, it's that because they didn't leave sooner and thus were as a League member complicite with the OFS policies in the Verge. But even that is weak because Beowulf could not as a League member impact those policies.

I really like this post, Don. I do have a few points though. Beowulf could have affected what the League thought they could continue to get away with by seceding much sooner. The fact that they went along with it for so long either shows that they were not emotionally and passionately invested as they claim to be now, or that they knew or feared that they didn't have the balls to do it before meeting their new suitor. A fact that the new suitor's military gives Beowulf big brass balls is a fact the Mandarins and their navy realizes as well. Which appears that the Manties are instigators.

Beowulf also failed the moral litmus test by seeking to protect Manticore by informing them that the gorilla was coming. But failing to also protect the innocent lives of the SLN that "It's a booby trap that we help set up!"

n7axw wrote:No, I don't think Beowulf can be critcized for finally drawing the line against the League's criminality by withdrawing. There is no moral obligation for Beowulf to participate in the mugging of an innocent friendly neighbor. In fact the moral argument really goes the other way. Since they did know about Raging Justice in advance, they were honor bound to inform Manticore in exactly the same sense and for the same reason that I would be obligated to inform my neighbor that someone was trying to break into his house along with doing everything possible to stop it.

Indeed. I like that slant. But you also yell at the criminal element that you've called the cops. And you don't plan with your neighbor to corner the criminals and hurt them. They were also honor bound to the League. Not to the Mandarins (although, perhaps they were since they run the League) but also to the League's citizens. They did not inform their own founding that there was danger. Perhaps it was ok to not give a shit about the Mandarins, but the billions of citizens represented by the League and the millions of innocent officers in the SLN should have been a concern of Beowulf's.

n7axw wrote:There is never an acceptable reason to either participate in evil or to stand aside while it is happening. To be sure, there are times when we are forced to choose between two wrongs and must decide which wrong would cause the greater harm. But we should never compromise our conscience by pretending that the one wrong has become right.

And we should never fail to examine all of our convictions out of honesty with ourselves and be ruled, not by the head in our pants but, by the head on our shoulders. Beowulf's morality was only @ 50 % power by Saving the Manties' hides that may have been fried from a totally surprising invasion, but failing to consider what the trap and working with the enemy could do to the innocent lives of their own founding. It was morally wrong to endanger the lives of innocent Solarian citizens when it is the Mandarins and their corruption that Beowulf detests. Beowulf illegally took matters into their own hands. Illegal against the implied relationship they held with the League.

n7axw wrote:But that is really not applicable here. The Mandarins had every opportunity to apologize for Byng's destruction of those three Rolands in New Tuscany and make restitution to the families of the victims. They also had more than ample opportunity to apologize for and disavow Sandra Crandal's actions. Morally the League doesn't have a leg to stand on and its actions toward Beowulf can only be described as reprehensible.

Don

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Beowulf's actions against their own founding can be thought of as reprehensible to the League, the navy and the Mandarins.

Apart from their failure to act sooner, I don't see that Beowulf is liable. What the League tried to do to Manticore is simply a replay of their policies in the Verge.

As far as Beowulf's actions being reprehensible to the League, the navy, and the Mandarins, I've got the tiniest violin in the world playing "my heart bleeds for them." Thank goodness Beowulf blew the whistle... even belatedly. You just as well say that crooks caught embezzling find the folks who turned them represensible. No empathy for that here!

Don

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Dauntless wrote:what moderating influence? they've been ignored for quite some time. not just the last decade or two.

that said I agree that staying and trying to fix was the best option at the time but it is clear that rot set in long ago and only the fact that someone is FINALLY able to stand up to SLN and say NO and make it stick is what makes leaving a serious option.

before SEM developed that ability it was pointless to leave as while they were members someone might wake up and realise things have gone to hell and beowulf would happy to help them try to fix things.

as non-members they couldn't even attempt to do that

all that doesn't change the fact as part of the SL when these acts happend some of the blood is on their hands, now Beowulf has long recognised this hence its efforts to fix things.

Actually, textev says that:

runsforcelery wrote:The League can actually be thought of as a sort of vast association of smaller political units. Many of those smaller units are multi-system in nature: three or four or a dozen systems united by common astrography, political concerns, economic ties, etc. Others--like Old Earth herself, Beowulf, and many of the other oldest "core worlds" lying within a couple of hundred light-years of Sol--are single-system political entities whose individual power make them forces to be reckoned with.

To get a majority rule in the League Assembly to investigate Beowulf for treason the Mandarins had to pull in every favor they had plus making backroom deals plus using blackmail plus using a smear campaign run by the Education and Information board. If you have to do that then Beowulf aren't very weak politically.

Beowulf didn't choose to allow OFS and the Mandarins their excesses, they have been trying to stop it. Being complicit means choosing to engage in an activity, doesn't it?

yes they did not support but neither did they leave and as long as they were part of the SL they, along with every other planet that is represented by the the chamber of stars, share some of the guilt for OFS or SLN atrocities.

I've already said that I understand, and recognise the lack of a better choice, why they didn't leave but that does not mean that they share zero responsibility for it. just because it is the only practical option does not mean it is the right moral one.

Beowulf did what they could and it was a damn sight more then many, and i'm not saying that should be made to pay reparations or put on trial like the mandarins or many SLN officers. I'm just saying that like everyone in this world they had to make choices and sometimes despite your best efforts those choices will leave you with blood on your hands.

We would of course need the League Constitution, all of it, which we do not have, but I do not believe that your argument holds water.

First, in our world at least, crimes are crimes by people. We do not have in our world a notion that a notion can commit a crime. The notion that Beowulf as a planet can commit treason makes no more sense than the claim that Luxembourg can commit treason, at least in terms of current law. When at the end of World War 2 Germans were punished for crimes and executed, a recycle of the World War One War Crimes trials that people tend to forget, it was individual military officers, individual government officials, and one (that I recall) private citizen who were variously tried for crimes against humanity and/or crimes against peace, convicted, and executed. Germany was not tried,.

Second, it would interesting to learn whether the League has a crime "treason" and if so what it is defined to be. There are bits of the American definition being slipped into this argument, with no textev that I recall that the definition is relevant.

The notion that Beowulf committed treason appears unlikely to have merit. They appear to have moved to rpevent actions that plausibly are crimes in the League, such as waging a a war of aggression, form being committed. If Filaretta's command deck had not been sabotaged, Beowulf would have succeeded in preventing an illegal war. While ti has been years since I read the book in question, I do not recall that it was specified that it was the Beowulf government that activated the extremely hidden back channel, as opposed to some lower-level person doing so. But perhaps I have forgotten.

With respect to casualties, 20 million people being killed is a bad thing, but relative to casualties that some countries endured in World War 2 without surrendering, including countries that were on the winning side, 20 million dead is rather minimal.

cthia wrote:

Dca wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Alice's action preventing Tsang from transiting the Beowulf wormhole came ar the moment of Filaretas attack, which was WAY after the black channel leak. Which does not speak to the troll of "TREASON!" Treason is about aid to enemies, which is still missing that darned declaration of war. I'm confident that won't be a problem for Tyrone Reid and company, but so what? The whole concept of treason implies a body worthy of respect and adherence, which the SL is (mostly) sorely lacking.

How did Beowulf not aid? And how are the Manties not League enemies?

Distance yourself as a reader who hates all things Mandarin. Beowulf was complicit.

cthia wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.

Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

When I wrote the reply (shown below for reference) to your post (shown above), I was using the point of view that you had explained you were using in your posts in this thread, that of the Solarian League--more specifically that of the Mandarins--and the Solarian League Navy.

In my reply I pointed out the dangers of the League's point of view, taken to the logical ends given the actual facts that exist facing the League--not the League's (outdated) view of what they thinks the facts are, or what they think the facts ought to be given the history of Honorverse naval combat.

I also deliberately ignored any legal issues of who, if anyone, was right or wrong--as your driver's education instructor pointed out, dead right or dead wrong is still dead.

Attempting to clarify the points I made:

1) What are the actual facts (in this instance primarily Honorverse naval combat, but also the external political alliances) facing the League?

2) Ignore the ideas of right or wrong, moral or immoral, legal or illegal. When it comes to a Them (the Grand Alliance) versus Us (the Solarian League) point of view, it is preferred for Us (the Solarian League, its goals and way of doing business) to prevail over Them (the Grand Alliance, its goals and way of doing business).

3) Is it possible, given the actual facts (both military and political) facing the League, for the League to win a conflict with the Grand Alliance?

4) Even more important than 3) above, is it possible, given the actual facts (both military and political) facing the League to lose a conflict with the Grand Alliance?

5) The idea of winning for the Solarian League is best expressed in the answer Conan gave to the question posed by the Mongol general: What is best in life? The answer Conan gave: To crush your enemies (the Grand Alliance in the Honorverse). See them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their women (replace women with citizenry in the Honorverse).

6) The inverse of winning for the Solarian League, losing, is to paraphrase Conan: To be crushed by your enemies (the Grand Alliance, and also the Mesan Alignment, in the Honorverse). To be driven by them into fleeing before them. And for your women (replace women with citizenry in the Honorverse) to cry their lamentations.

7) 'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.' The Solarian League and the Solarian League Navy has not studied the recent history of the Havenite Wars, and thus have found themselves reprising the role of the People's Republic of Haven Legislaturists' in instigating what they thought would be a short, victorious war in what turned out to be anything but.

8) 'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.' The Grand Alliance is all too aware of history both recent and the more distant past. They are aware of the current, actual facts of both Honovrverse naval combat, the politics of the Alliance, as well as the politics and relationships of the League, both internal and external, and the independent systems and how those politics and relationships might be used to lever apart the League. And they are all too aware that they cannot afford to give the League time to recover from the defeats it has suffered.

9) Finally, tit-for-tat or the more elegantly quotes from Clauswitz and Herberg-Rothe: Again, leaving aside right or wrong, moral or immoral, legal or illegal, when nations trade blows in war, the blows they trade will escalate without limits, until one has defeated the other. If the League Navy ultimately commits an act of genocide--an Epsilon Eridani Edict violation-- the League will find itself on the receiving end of them. And given the current actual facts of Honorverse naval combat, as opposed to the League's and its Navy's view of what they think are the current facts, I cannot see even the slightest chance of the League's survival. Should the Solarian League choose to commit Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, the Solarian League will either be snuffed out by the Grand Alliance, or go extinct as member systems leave it.

For reference:

Vince's reply to cthia's post wrote:If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:

ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:

Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.

Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.

cthia wrote:Again, I can't understand why many of you are so quick to easily accept the bastardization of John Harrington's quote and your willingness to support the many who are in power to take advantage of that quote. Yet, why should the same strategy not be open to the League, with all of this rampant talk about legal issues in the face of a dying superpower!

Emergency, on-the-spot, war powers is what the Mandarins enacted. They ignored proper protocol, yes. But they did so in light of "the spirit of the law" AND THEIR SURVIVAL!

The "spirit of the law" supports their actions considering the untenable position they were in. They were desperate. Just like the Havenites were when they attempted the same thing. They went for a Hail Mary pass and it was intercepted. Their trick play even ended up in a safety for the other team. Both plays were not only thwarted, but were turned into offense for the enemy - the worst possible outcome for a play, because someone gave the other team the playbook. And they got clobbered!

The Mandarins went for a sucker punch, out of desperation to save itself and the League. As any entity would do. As any navy would do, that it even has the raw innate human will and right to do, survive! Again, it was nothing less than what Haven tried with the first BOM. Hit them while they are unaware, unsuspecting and one big happy family, utilizing the element of surprise. It is self-preservation. They didn't have time to bother with "niggling little details" like going through the League Assembly. That would have taken too much time and time was not a luxury the SLN had. In fact, it could have been argued that if the Mandarins failed to act decisively, facing the inevitable death to the League and the threat to Old Earth, would have been treasonous...

Given what they thought was obvious, that the Manty Home defenses were gutted. And that the writing on the wall says that if they do not score, and score big, during the two minute warning, they are doomed.

What is wrong about a decision to make a quick thrust down the heart of an enemy and to a system that is on your long range plans to absorb anyway, when you see a weakness in the system's heart? To wait and let that moment pass would have been highly irresponsible of the League. The League was expansionistic, they didn't just become so overnight.

"But they just don't want Beowulf to secede!"

Of course they don't! You can't fault them there. Beowulf's junction represents a direct axis of threat into the League. Beowulf's secession would threaten the League at its core, from within, like a disease. Many of you continue to allow your prejudices to color your logic. It is difficult to remain emotionally detached, fair and impartial, when you are a reader.


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After being alerted, Beowulf proceeded to pull at the stitch that was the snitch, thus exacerbating the glitch even further. They did not elect to sew the stitch up. They elected to pull at the system glitch that provided a snitch, instead of stitching the stitch that is a snitch, thus resisting the itch to unravel the plan even further.

Beowulf was bad. Really really bad. It doesn't matter if you and I don't think they were bad. We don't weigh 800#.

Relevant bit underlined.

Now I know that this may provoke strong feelings, but I really am not trying to offend anyone.

But when I read this post, particularly the underline bit. It seems like a justification for any surprise attack. Just change "system" to "nation" and it could be the Japanese rationale for Pearl Harbor.