BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

kzt wrote:

BrightSoul wrote:1) Violation of the League Constitution.
2) Threats to attack CITIZENS of the League.
3) Threats to hold League Citizens at gunpoint in Violation of said League Constitution.
4) Deliberate Violation of Orders from League Foreign Minister.
5) Secret Orders from SLN Commander without notification to Defense Minister (his direct boss) or Prime Minister No notification of Civil Government at the behest of Foreign Powers.

All acts of TREASON by Rajampet.

And people think I'm being silly by suggesting that the Assembly will simply pass laws that directly violate the constitution, and then arrest anyone challenging it.

Um, I'm responding to someone's complaints about Beowulf committing treason. How is anything I just pointed out wrong? Are we even reading the same stories?

In the confrontation between Tsang and the Beowulf SDF she threatened to hold the Citizens of Beowulf manning junction control (a League world IIRC) at gunpoint until her task group was through the terminus. IIRC they are also planning to attack Beowulf itself under false pretenses. Recall that Reid's own motion is an effort by the Mandarins to cover up their own illegal actions?

BTW IIRC doesn't military action against one's own citizens require both a declaration of war and something declaring martial law?

I presume the real point to this is that there is no law but the gun? Then simply make that statement. Why all the circumlocution?

Egads.

cthia wrote:Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

Vince wrote:If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:

ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:

Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.

Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.

It seems that Vince's practical points are very well made. However I doubt that Manticore would attack populations; I expect the response to be against the SLN and possibly League offices on Old Sol.

Theoretically the League can feel justified in accusing Beowulf of treason, even though they are only doing it to divert attention from the bad acts of the Mandarins and the SLN. If they realized that Beowulf had warned Manticore and Haven long before the request to send forces through the junction, then they would be yelling treason all the louder.

But the thing about treason is that whoever is standing at the end gets to determine whether it is true. And that is the point that Vince makes: until the League has military success against the GA, then the League should be cautious in attacking Beowulf. We know from the blurb on the new book that the League will not be cautious and will suffer for it. "If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment."

Is this thread just another attempt to poke the forum into a discussion of treason?

It will all be just as legal and as fully in accord with the SL constitution as the 1980 USSR was in accord with the constitution of the USSR. All the forms will be observed and they judge will deeply consider the evidence presented before the judge hold out his hand and the government attorney hands him the rubber stamp and they all go out for a few drinks.

Cthia, it you're playing devil's advocate, you are doing a good job. But if you are going to roleplay a Mandarin, maybe you could give us a clue? Although I am not sure a Mandarin is your viewpoint, unless you mean McCartney.

I see the passion in the post, and it seems to me something in the situation is hitting you personally. So thanks for clearing up the POV you're taking.

A couple of points, then.

The Mandarins are spinning this as "treason" primarily to prevent any kind of hearing into the decision making process of what led to New Tuscany, Spindle, and Manticore. Which would expose the application of illegal force in the illegal expansion of their borders, which has been concealed from the awareness of the general public by the bureaucrats for a looooooong time. As long as the public doesn't look at things, the status quo of the Mandarins remains.


While Kolokoltsov is willing to use that sort of propaganda ==like "yellow journalism" in the good old days==to shape the mob's public opinion, he and the other Mandarins (especially Abruzzi) know very well it is a LIE.

So, from the Mandarin's point of view, they really do NOT want any impartial investigation into "Beowulf's treason", what they want is their bought and paid for spin doctors confusing all the issues involved until the problem fades away. So, in that sense, you are not arguing the government's position, but the position taken by the mob burning the effigies; and we don't even know whether they are just an easily led minority, or represent a majority, or how firmly held their convictions might be--we haven't had a single viewpoint from that vantage.

You also said you are arguing from the view of the SLN==but their view and opinion shifts quite a bit, the further they are from the centers of the bureaucracy. It is not monolithic, or catholic (in the sense of universal, I mean).

The leaders of the SLN, aside from Byng and Crandall, and the idiot in charge of the Strategy board, also know that the government's propaganda is false. But many of them take their paychecks and kickbacks from their official salaries and whatever they skim from the money flow from various assignments in the Verge. Also, it is the system and culture of entitlement they grew up in--the right and wrong of it doesn't seem to matter to BF nearly as much as the officers in FF.

This is taking longer than I thought.

Anyway, you sometimes claim to be voicing the opinion of the LEAGUE. I suppose that means you need to define what part of the League you mean. To me, the League is the body of its member states and their citizens, on the one hand; or the over-reaching officials of the agencies running parts of the social order on the other. Agencies that are supposed to SERVE the interest of the members, not themselves.

But the Mandarins are smart enough to know that for the majority of their citizens, their principal loyalty is (as it should be--centuries of tradition, and all that) to their HOME system. That most of those citizens have never, in their lives, had to actually think about what it means to even BE a citizen, or to consider whether or not they really wanted to be one. It was just their reality. Until now.

Oh, and Beowulf didn't just JOIN the League--they were one of the FOUNDERS, and principal architects. They have spent, as I said before, the League's entire existence trying to correct the flaws in the constitution, without success. Do they somehow owe loyalty to the criminal kleptomaniacs in charge of agencies whose function was solely to provide services to the MEMBERS of the League?

So, are you the Mob, the Mandarins, or the holofax of the progaganda?

Oh, wait. "Their previous masters" you said in your post. No League core world thinks of the League that way, that's why the Mandarins hold on things is so shaky.

aaaargh. too many drifting threads in one post!

Regards,

Rob

cthia wrote:SNIP

You are making the same mistake as many do when I argue a stance. You are making it personal about me.

I am not arguing cthia's position, I am arguing the League's position.
Snip

I'm looking at this thing from the SLN's point of view. Not Beowulf's, not the RMN's, not RFC's readers or cthia. Because the punishment meted out onto Beowulf, will not come from either of us. It will come from the SLN.

SNIP
I am positing that in the Mandarins eyes, transgressions against the League were made in both areas. Beowulf knew exactly how the League would perceive their actions, and how they'd respond. Beowulf knows exactly what kind of entity the gorilla is. They know for a fact that the League would perceive their actions as traitorous. Not CTHIA, the LEAGUE!


* What cthia personally thinks is that Beowulf handled it wrongly. They know exactly what type of entity their previous masters are.
SNIP

That is where cthia draws the line.

Vince wrote:
SNIP

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.

Vince,

A bit too draconian.

Killing the planets isn't the reaction to violations of the Eridani edict; arresting and executing the individuals involved in ordering it and in carrying it out will be. Individual systems with no control over the process won't be bothered.

Regards,
Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

Vince wrote:
SNIP

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.

Vince,

A bit too draconian.

Killing the planets isn't the reaction to violations of the Eridani edict; arresting and executing the individuals involved in ordering it and in carrying it out will be. Individual systems with no control over the process won't be bothered.

Regards,
Rob

Sorry I'm still trying to figure out how The EU can charge Greece with Treason. Or how NATO can charge Turkey with treason. Then I have to extrapolate that to this and then go to EEE violations. Since, presumably, thses actions are being passed off as response to treason bt Beowulf over either denying Tsang passage to Manticore to support Filareta or for dparting the league in the first place. Or, yeah. maybe both.

pappilon wrote:
Sorry I'm still trying to figure out how The EU can charge Greece with Treason. Or how NATO can charge Turkey with treason. Then I have to extrapolate that to this and then go to EEE violations. Since, presumably, thses actions are being passed off as response to treason bt Beowulf over either denying Tsang passage to Manticore to support Filareta or for dparting the league in the first place. Or, yeah. maybe both.

People are bored waiting for the book. And apparently have both very active imaginations, and too much time to think.

Wouldn't the secession part be more like Brexit? NATO or the EU are fair analogies; here's another one. Nafta declaring Mexico is "treasonous" because of their inability to secure either their southern or their northern border against refugees or criminals and human trafficers.

Rob

Seems to me that the legal situation of Beowulf changed drastically with Manticore's (and, I assume, Haven's) formal declaration of war on the Solarian League.

Personally, I find all the spin-doctoring of events prior to the GL's declaration of war on the SL to be futile and tedious.

In the eyes of the Mandarins, Beowulf was obviously treasonous even before Filereta's disaster. The Mandarins were equally treasonous to the Beowulf Board of Directors and most of its population. Yawn.

But with Manticore's declaration of war on the SL, Beowulf is now in an exceedingly tenuous situation legally . . . I think it's an easy argument that their continued support of Manticore after the Manties' declaration of war constitutes a de-facto secession (call it treason if you're wearing Solarian-League-colored glasses) from the SL.

One thing I think all can agree on is that we need that EARC and we need it now!

cthia wrote:I don't know how to break this to you all. But just like in another thread, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Indeed Bob. You have a point, many of them. The post is well laid out and articulated and I agree with you all. Except that...

You are making the same mistake as many do when I argue a stance. You are making it personal about me.

I am not arguing cthia's position, I am arguing the League's position. Also, I understand the difference of the League compared to the U.S., and member states and allies. However, not one of our allies, who would object to us attacking North Korea, would turn traitorous. They may refuse to join in, but that would be the limit of their objection.

Many of you are overlooking the unspoken and implied obligations Beowulf has to the League, when they joined. When the League went to Beowulf and laid its cards on the table, perhaps Beowulf could have been conscientious objectors. But it must end there. I'm looking at this thing from the SLN's point of view. Not Beowulf's, not the RMN's, not RFC's readers or cthia. Because the punishment meted out onto Beowulf, will not come from either of us. It will come from the SLN.

Cthia is not arguing any legal or moral high grounds that the League has to stand on, for cthia's sake. Nor does he charge a positively, absolute transgression in either area.* However, I am positing that in the Mandarins eyes, transgressions against the League were made in both areas. Beowulf knew exactly how the League would perceive their actions, and how they'd respond. Beowulf knows exactly what kind of entity the gorilla is. They know for a fact that the League would perceive their actions as traitorous. Not CTHIA, the LEAGUE!

If there had been an EE violation and the SLN was dispatched to deal with the devil, it would have been treasonous of Beowulf to alert the devils the gorilla was coming. Just because they don't believe in a cause is no free pass to turn into rats.

If Grayson or the RMN did the same thing to each other, it would be traitorous. Erewhon was a free agent working with the RMN. That wasn't the same relationship. The same loyalty was not unspoken or implied.

The relationship of Beowulf with the League was unspoken and implied. Certainly in the SLN's mind, where it counts... since Beowulf was leaving and ratting the SLN out, not RFC or any of his readers. There is an 800# difference. If Beowulf would have sold the RMN out, Beowulf would have been labeled traitors even though there was no legal papers between the two.

* What cthia personally thinks is that Beowulf handled it wrongly. They know exactly what type of entity their previous masters are. If they were going to alert the RMN that the juggernaut was coming, it should also have alerted the juggernaut—full of innocent officers following orders—that the Manties knew they were coming. Man up and admit "WE TOLD THEM. THEY ARE PREPARED TO RECEIVE YOU!"

That is where cthia draws the line.

The League is not, nor never was, Beowulf's "master." Beowulf was a sovereign nation in its own right with all of the rights, perogatives and responsibilities normally associated with that.

Don

-

Nope, it didn't change the legal status at all. It wasn't actually illegal for Beowulf to deny passage to the Task Group (which is their "crime": asserting their sovereignty when no Act of the Assembly invoked emergency powers to the League) nor is it illegal (under the Constitution--the controlling law that governs the relationship between the League and its member Systems). And what is legal at the time can't properly be made illegal after the fact.

And it will be the winners of the war that will determine what, if anything, is or is not "legal." That doesn't look good for the League right now.

I think you are confusing the Mandarins' disinformation campaign to obscure their own culpability, with what they actually know or believe. What they are having Abruzzi's media (and their paid-for politicians in the Assembly) rant to the public, is neither factual, or even vaguely honest. And all of the Mandarins are ok with that. Doesn't mean the leaders of the Member System governments won't understand what is happening, though.

And since the Constitution tried to prevent the central government from tyrannical power by requiring ALL members of the League to vote those (so far non-existant)emergency powers into effect, the idiot Mandarins have effectively put ALL League members on notice that the bureaucrats' illegal arrogation of power is not going to honor the basic rights of their membership in the League. Like the right to self-determination, and the right to LEAVE. So why should any of them stay in it? They joined in the first place only because access to hyperspace was making travel and commerce (and piracy and raiding) possible after most of a thousand years of near-isolation.

And while SOV has some Shell systems talking about secession, whatever happened to the four systems near Beowulf that were talking about it back in July? Kenichi, et alia. A continuity error, or is Kolokoltsov just keeping that under wraps? I don't think he mentioned it to the other Mandarins.

And, yes, I wish the book was out already too.

Rob

filbert wrote:Seems to me that the legal situation of Beowulf changed drastically with Manticore's (and, I assume, Haven's) formal declaration of war on the Solarian League.

Personally, I find all the spin-doctoring of events prior to the GL's declaration of war on the SL to be futile and tedious.

In the eyes of the Mandarins, Beowulf was obviously treasonous even before Filereta's disaster. The Mandarins were equally treasonous to the Beowulf Board of Directors and most of its population. Yawn.

But with Manticore's declaration of war on the SL, Beowulf is now in an exceedingly tenuous situation legally . . . I think it's an easy argument that their continued support of Manticore after the Manties' declaration of war constitutes a de-facto secession (call it treason if you're wearing Solarian-League-colored glasses) from the SL.

One thing I think all can agree on is that we need that EARC and we need it now!