Remaining holes in SLN intel

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:Because the SLN came to them and asked them to join in the fun of a wormhole invasion.

I thought it was more than that, because the Beowulf official already had a good idea what the Solarian officer was going to ask before the first meeting. He arranged to have a Beowulf conference to discuss how to answer before they heard the request.
Sometimes it is just as important to spy on your allies as it is to spy on your enemies.

I remember a similar occurance with the Beowulf leadership knowing ahead of the events, but at the end of the day, an SLN Admiral literally showed up on Beowulf, handed the SDF Leadership a folder of the mission highlights and the desired role for the Beowulf SDF's wallers to the Beowulf Armirality, and requested they join in.

Too which, the Beowulf leadership told the SLN Admiral that the Manticorian wormhole and home defenses were 100% online, and such a foray was suicide. And that they had no quarrel with Manticore and the SLN had no power to enforce the request without declaring war against Manticore.

Then they sent a super secret message on a super secret back channel to nobody in particular that the Sollies were coming.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:Because the SLN came to them and asked them to join in the fun of a wormhole invasion.

I thought it was more than that, because the Beowulf official already had a good idea what the Solarian officer was going to ask before the first meeting. He arranged to have a Beowulf conference to discuss how to answer before they heard the request.
Sometimes it is just as important to spy on your allies as it is to spy on your enemies.

I remember a similar occurance with the Beowulf leadership knowing ahead of the events, but at the end of the day, an SLN Admiral literally showed up on Beowulf, handed the SDF Leadership a folder of the mission highlights and the desired role for the Beowulf SDF's wallers to the Beowulf Armirality, and requested they join in.

Too which, the Beowulf leadership told the SLN Admiral that the Manticorian wormhole and home defenses were 100% online, and such a foray was suicide. And that they had no quarrel with Manticore and the SLN had no power to enforce the request without declaring war against Manticore.

Then they sent a super secret message on a super secret back channel to nobody in particular that the Sollies were coming.[/quote]


Note again that the attack through the wormhole was actually suicide. There were a limited number of ships that could come through at a time without disruption.

Had a fleet been waiting for the Sollies their ships would either have been captured or destroyed.

cthia wrote:If the Harrington Plan is to work, they must fracture a big enough chunk of that 3000. Systems are not going to split on account of promises. "You'll send us some ships when? Oh hell no. We are not going to be the next Beowulf!"

SNIP

Interesting post Joat.

No, I didn't get the memo. The Harrington Doctrine of the League fracturing is not dependent upon the MAlign. Harrington knew nothing of the MAlign when she conceived of her plan. And the first I heard tell of any fault lines is from Harrington's Doctrine. I certainly could have missed other references regarding it as well. But the Harrington Doctrine is the first to put a finger on fault lines and the exposure of the gorilla's gonads to castration.

Sure, the League has become paralyzed over the centuries, but none (League worlds) were positioned to capitalize off of said fact.

I suppose I get my intel from the SLN

I was under the impression that the part of the RF controlled worlds were simply to sit back and wait for the quadrant to fall into a police less state then seek help from the "convenient" new player.

Again, interesting post. Thanks for filling in some holes in my intel.

.[/quote]

He did do a thorough job... But the stress fractures in the League were sort of obvious in the intro to the Maya sector in Crown of Slaves. . . that sort of "historical" quote that started the book.

And you are right about the RF sitting back to wait for the League to fall into lawlessness before they act to "restore the League" under their leadership. . . .

Regards,
Rob

cthia wrote:If the Harrington Plan is to work, they must fracture a big enough chunk of that 3000. Systems are not going to split on account of promises. "You'll send us some ships when? Oh hell no. We are not going to be the next Beowulf!"

cthia wrote:SNIP

Interesting post Joat.

No, I didn't get the memo. The Harrington Doctrine of the League fracturing is not dependent upon the MAlign. Harrington knew nothing of the MAlign when she conceived of her plan. And the first I heard tell of any fault lines is from Harrington's Doctrine. I certainly could have missed other references regarding it as well. But the Harrington Doctrine is the first to put a finger on fault lines and the exposure of the gorilla's gonads to castration.

Sure, the League has become paralyzed over the centuries, but none (League worlds) were positioned to capitalize off of said fact.

I suppose I get my intel from the SLN

I was under the impression that the part of the RF controlled worlds were simply to sit back and wait for the quadrant to fall into a police less state then seek help from the "convenient" new player.

Again, interesting post. Thanks for filling in some holes in my intel.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:He did do a thorough job... But the stress fractures in the League were sort of obvious in the intro to the Maya sector in Crown of Slaves. . . that sort of "historical" quote that started the book.

And you are right about the RF sitting back to wait for the League to fall into lawlessness before they act to "restore the League" under their leadership. . . .

Regards,
Rob

Indeed. But not just lawlessness. Lawlessness and policeless. No one left to even pray to for help. An anorexic gorilla.

.

cthia wrote:Indeed. But not just lawlessness. Lawlessness and policeless. No one left to even pray to for help. An anorexic gorilla.

Anorexic and asthmatic?

There was a back-channel message sent to Manticore and Haven that was generally believed to be from Beowulf well in advance of the SLN showing up at Beowulf.

MoH Chapter 37
"Actually, this may be something we need to take to the PM and Her Majesty," Givens said, her expression and her tone both suddenly much more serious. "One of my people just brought me something from one of our 'black'—in this case, very black—Beowulf conduits."


"But, excuse me, Linda," Thomas Theisman said, turning to face her and the president, with his back towards the panoramic window of Pritchart's Péricard Tower office, "why in the world would somebody in Beowulf suddenly drop this kind of information on us of all people?"

kzt wrote:There was a back-channel message sent to Manticore and Haven that was generally believed to be from Beowulf well in advance of the SLN showing up at Beowulf.

MoH Chapter 37
"Actually, this may be something we need to take to the PM and Her Majesty," Givens said, her expression and her tone both suddenly much more serious. "One of my people just brought me something from one of our 'black'—in this case, very black—Beowulf conduits."


"But, excuse me, Linda," Thomas Theisman said, turning to face her and the president, with his back towards the panoramic window of Pritchart's Péricard Tower office, "why in the world would somebody in Beowulf suddenly drop this kind of information on us of all people?"

There is NO textev of how Beowulf found out, only that they passed the info to Manticore and Haven. My theory is someone in mission planning has a family connection to Beowulf, or antipathy to the legue over their continuing stupidity.

Theemile wrote:Because the SLN came to them and asked them to join in the fun of a wormhole invasion.

tlb wrote:I thought it was more than that, because the Beowulf official already had a good idea what the Solarian officer was going to ask before the first meeting. He arranged to have a Beowulf conference to discuss how to answer before they heard the request.
Sometimes it is just as important to spy on your allies as it is to spy on your enemies.

Theemile wrote:I remember a similar occurance with the Beowulf leadership knowing ahead of the events, but at the end of the day, an SLN Admiral literally showed up on Beowulf, handed the SDF Leadership a folder of the mission highlights and the desired role for the Beowulf SDF's wallers to the Beowulf Armirality, and requested they join in.

Too which, the Beowulf leadership told the SLN Admiral that the Manticorian wormhole and home defenses were 100% online, and such a foray was suicide. And that they had no quarrel with Manticore and the SLN had no power to enforce the request without declaring war against Manticore.

Then they sent a super secret message on a super secret back channel to nobody in particular that the Sollies were coming.

As has been mentioned Beowulf warned both Manticore and Haven about the Filareta fleet and Operation Raging Justice in Chapter 37 of Mission of Honor. This is prior to the return of Cachet and Zilwicki, so prior to Haven allying with Manticore.

But the request/demand that Beowulf allow a second Solarian Fleet through the wormhole did not occur until Chapter 7 of A Rising Thunder. This was intended to force Beowulf to side with the League or with Manticore in a way that could be used against Beowulf in the League Assembly.

Theemile wrote:Too which, the Beowulf leadership told the SLN Admiral that the Manticorian wormhole and home defenses were 100% online, and such a foray was suicide. And that they had no quarrel with Manticore and the SLN had no power to enforce the request without declaring war against Manticore.

Then they sent a super secret message on a super secret back channel to nobody in particular that the Sollies were coming.

What I don't understand is how anyone in the SLN could think it was anything other than suicide.

Manticore of course knows the threat of a mass transit. This gives an absolute maximum of firepower that can arrive at once--and thus the defenders can size their forts to deal with that level of threat.

The only way a wormhole assault can work against a competent enemy is if you have a major technological surprise--you're sending through far more firepower than they think can be done in one transit.

The only situation I can see where that existed at all was with the advent of Apollo and there were no wormholes to assault then--and why take the casualties of a wormhole assault anyway? Apollo is an even greater advantage as the range goes up--thus it should be used in a traditional assault.

The only case where I can see a wormhole assault being the right answer is if you have some devastating breakthrough in energy weapons and even then it's only sensible if there aren't other defenders around. (Suppose the SLN had ships with grasers that were deadly to 10mkm for the Beowulf assault. They take out the junction forts and then die to the missiles coming in from 30 mkm out.)

pappilon wrote:

kzt wrote:There was a back-channel message sent to Manticore and Haven that was generally believed to be from Beowulf well in advance of the SLN showing up at Beowulf.

MoH Chapter 37
"Actually, this may be something we need to take to the PM and Her Majesty," Givens said, her expression and her tone both suddenly much more serious. "One of my people just brought me something from one of our 'black'—in this case, very black—Beowulf conduits."


"But, excuse me, Linda," Thomas Theisman said, turning to face her and the president, with his back towards the panoramic window of Pritchart's Péricard Tower office, "why in the world would somebody in Beowulf suddenly drop this kind of information on us of all people?"

There is NO textev of how Beowulf found out, only that they passed the info to Manticore and Haven. My theory is someone in mission planning has a family connection to Beowulf, or antipathy to the legue over their continuing stupidity.

There several mentions in different texts on Beowulf's intelligence services--not just that they exist, but that they are constantly seeking info for their Biological Survey Corps to act on. Also, it has been mentioned that trade attache`s perform functions within the League that would otherwise be the function of embassies. One function of which, is gathering information on the intentions and capabilities of everyone in your area of interest, not just your "enemies." Or even, just in your command area.

Rob