Fleet size

Hikeh wrote:Hey guys what is the current fleet size of each of the manticoran alliance members post first battle of manticore and pre oyster bay.

Theemile wrote:

Hikeh wrote:Hey guys what is the current fleet size of each of the manticoran alliance members post first battle of manticore and pre oyster bay.

Honestly. There are no firm numbers. The last hard count chop we have is ~March 8th 1920 iirc (This is the date Honor takes command of 8th fleet, and several days after Terekhov leaves for the Talbot Quadrant.) HoS gives us some additional numbers, but only counts builds and retirements, not losses, and is dated ~May 1st 1921. BoMA is late July 1921, and OB is ~March 1st 1922. We have the rough BoMA losses, but not the OB losses, nor the builds which occurred between May 1st 1921, and March 1st 1922.

Also, the 1920 Fleet List and the HOS details do not jive with the Thunderbolt losses - only Sidemore and Grendlesbane losses seem to be accounted for in those 2 lists, not the ~60 other SDs and ~100 CA and BCs reported lost at the ~20 former Havenite worlds.

I believe there is a reason why nothing is written down - it gives David a flexibility he would not have if it was codified. this way, there are an infinite # of Sag-Cs to send to distant locations, not less than 250 (149 were in the fleet as of May 1st 1921; rough math showed that an additional 100 could be produced before OB, given unchanging build priorities and capabilities. Given Kamerling CL Construction as placed on hiatus after 48 were built, the slips previously dedicated to their construction could be used for more Sag-Cs or more Rolands/Avalons.) Placing HoS, or another build count at the time of OB would have finalized it in a way that locked David in place, where as any statement in the books can be waved away by the author saying "there was something the speaker didn't know or was unaware of".

ldwechsler wrote:

Theemile wrote:quote="Hikeh"Hey guys what is the current fleet size of each of the manticoran alliance members post first battle of manticore and pre oyster bay.

Honestly. There are no firm numbers. The last hard count chop we have is ~March 8th 1920 iirc (This is the date Honor takes command of 8th fleet, and several days after Terekhov leaves for the Talbot Quadrant.) HoS gives us some additional numbers, but only counts builds and retirements, not losses, and is dated ~May 1st 1921. BoMA is late July 1921, and OB is ~March 1st 1922. We have the rough BoMA losses, but not the OB losses, nor the builds which occurred between May 1st 1921, and March 1st 1922.

Also, the 1920 Fleet List and the HOS details do not jive with the Thunderbolt losses - only Sidemore and Grendlesbane losses seem to be accounted for in those 2 lists, not the ~60 other SDs and ~100 CA and BCs reported lost at the ~20 former Havenite worlds.

I believe there is a reason why nothing is written down - it gives David a flexibility he would not have if it was codified. this way, there are an infinite # of Sag-Cs to send to distant locations, not less than 250 (149 were in the fleet as of May 1st 1921; rough math showed that an additional 100 could be produced before OB, given unchanging build priorities and capabilities. Given Kamerling CL Construction as placed on hiatus after 48 were built, the slips previously dedicated to their construction could be used for more Sag-Cs or more Rolands/Avalons.) Placing HoS, or another build count at the time of OB would have finalized it in a way that locked David in place, where as any statement in the books can be waved away by the author saying "there was something the speaker didn't know or was unaware of".

lyonheart wrote:Hi guys,

I suspect the main problem is all us devoted fans kibitzing when we are so ignorant, and RFC wants the creative freedom within the parameters he's already set.

Granted RFC loves pulling our chains with distractions and diversions that keep us from realizing exactly where he's actually going, despite sometimes having years to guess.

I suspect a major problem is keeping details straight when its been monthes or years since he visited a particular creation, and what great storyteller wants to be bogged down in a single universe regardless of whether he invented it or not?

HoS demonstrates the RMN's impressive ship construction in the ten monthes after the June 1920 Fleet Strength Chart, and the 10 monthes that followed to OB, as the RMN continued to desperately expand production only indicate the HoS numbers are now themselves rather low, while the RHN figures could be huge, the GSN impressive and the IAN's very interesting.

We still don't know the SLN's breakdown figures except the FF's heavy cruisers seem rather less represented than the BC's, CL's, and DD's in Crandall and Filaretta's fleets.

Perhaps they're too busy elsewhere.

The important thing is the SLN is screwed unless they have ~20-1 odds in hulls or tonnage against old RMN DD's etc.

218 days to go!

L

Theemile wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi guys,

I suspect the main problem is all us devoted fans kibitzing when we are so ignorant, and RFC wants the creative freedom within the parameters he's already set.

Granted RFC loves pulling our chains with distractions and diversions that keep us from realizing exactly where he's actually going, despite sometimes having years to guess.

I suspect a major problem is keeping details straight when its been monthes or years since he visited a particular creation, and what great storyteller wants to be bogged down in a single universe regardless of whether he invented it or not?

HoS demonstrates the RMN's impressive ship construction in the ten monthes after the June 1920 Fleet Strength Chart, and the 10 monthes that followed to OB, as the RMN continued to desperately expand production only indicate the HoS numbers are now themselves rather low, while the RHN figures could be huge, the GSN impressive and the IAN's very interesting.

We still don't know the SLN's breakdown figures except the FF's heavy cruisers seem rather less represented than the BC's, CL's, and DD's in Crandall and Filaretta's fleets.

Perhaps they're too busy elsewhere.

The important thing is the SLN is screwed unless they have ~20-1 odds in hulls or tonnage against old RMN DD's etc.

218 days to go!

L

Hi Lyonheart, Concerning your last comment, I found a throw-away line in SoV that may explain the lack of SLN CAs. When confronted with the charging taskforce led by Tremaine, Tomaguchi was musing about seeing a Sag-C leading the group. He had been informed that it was the same design reported at Spindle and which had stood in the way of Commodore Pyun, and seen in other places.

His thoughts were that the RMN's conceptual use of the Sag-C design was the same as a SLN BC - powerful enough to deal with troublesome issues, and able to be built in quantities sufficient to be widely available.

note- he didn't equate it to a CA and a BC use in SLN hands, but only to a BC. SLN CAs may be seen as not powerful enough to deal with issues on their own, so may not be used widely. Which makes sense, concerning the differing responsibilities of the RMN and SLN in peacetime.

Both Navies needed tons of presence units - light units with the minimum of warfighting capabilities, but still a complete package that is the equal of any other light unit out there. They needed them small enough to be everywhere, and cheap enough to be built in numbers. And in addition to the millions of small jobs a navy has, they needed to be seen, everywhere, as the face of the navy.

The Navies also both needed BCs - not necessarily for fighting, but for shutting down diplomatic issues before they start. A handful of BCs wandering into any system is enough to get any government to stand up and take notice, be them friendly or not. And when the fighting started, they became heavy raiders, able to quickly move to deal with issues, and smash lesser navies. So, they too needed to be built in largish quantities.

Where the 2 navies differed, is the RMN needed heavy pirate swatters - ships that were still small enough to be built in number, but had enough firepower to deal with Pirates far from home. They also needed to send a specific message, one of a firm, powerful hand, but not one which is necessarily threatening. And this is a CA - the Light Raider/Pirate swatter.

So the CA is the RMN ship of choice for dealing with forest fires - they are usually forward deployed and in position to deal with issues far from Manticore, and given to senior enough Captains to be able to handle issues without extra instructions.

And the SLN does not have to swat pirates - so the type isn't required and the firefighting tends to be more heavy handed - thus the use of BCs. So their CAs don't have that much of a unique peace time role.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Theemile,

I've posted about this question before with no good solutions.

The data is mixed; in SftS, Commodore Thurgood had only a division of heavy cruisers, but they got upgraded to BC's in the next book.

Then there is the Battle of Tiberian, where the tech of the FF Gladiator CA's were nearly as good as the Sag-B Gauntlet's [which RFC originally intended to be a BC], before we ever saw how powerful the Sag-C was, now emphasized by it crushing all BC's before it.

I have assumed that the FF ship construction and distribution has been in near equal numbers of each class, but without any further details we can't say one way or another.

My own thought is that while BC's are indeed prestige ships, which commanders prefer to keep close, heavy cruisers are powerful enough to send further out on independent missions beyond the verge where a SLN FF CA is the equivalent of a BC, relative to the locals.

We don't know how far humanity has colonized from Sol, but given C+ transports 6.5 centuries, 1500-2000 LY isn't impossible at all, and we have textev of a hyper bridge of some 913 LY discovered centuries ago that should have colonized systems hundreds of LY's beyond its far terminus as well.

Some of these missions may be so long that some CA's left before New Tuscany and may find the SL is gone when they return.

Lots of good story potential if RFC had the time.

Definitely interesting times.

L

lyonheart wrote:Hi guys,

I suspect the main problem is all us devoted fans kibitzing when we are so ignorant, and RFC wants the creative freedom within the parameters he's already set.

Granted RFC loves pulling our chains with distractions and diversions that keep us from realizing exactly where he's actually going, despite sometimes having years to guess.

I suspect a major problem is keeping details straight when its been monthes or years since he visited a particular creation, and what great storyteller wants to be bogged down in a single universe regardless of whether he invented it or not?

HoS demonstrates the RMN's impressive ship construction in the ten monthes after the June 1920 Fleet Strength Chart, and the 10 monthes that followed to OB, as the RMN continued to desperately expand production only indicate the HoS numbers are now themselves rather low, while the RHN figures could be huge, the GSN impressive and the IAN's very interesting.

We still don't know the SLN's breakdown figures except the FF's heavy cruisers seem rather less represented than the BC's, CL's, and DD's in Crandall and Filaretta's fleets.

Perhaps they're too busy elsewhere.

The important thing is the SLN is screwed unless they have ~20-1 odds in hulls or tonnage against old RMN DD's etc.

218 days to go!

L

Hi Lyonheart, Concerning your last comment, I found a throw-away line in SoV that may explain the lack of SLN CAs. When confronted with the charging taskforce led by Tremaine, Tomaguchi was musing about seeing a Sag-C leading the group. He had been informed that it was the same design reported at Spindle and which had stood in the way of Commodore Pyun, and seen in other places.

His thoughts were that the RMN's conceptual use of the Sag-C design was the same as a SLN BC - powerful enough to deal with troublesome issues, and able to be built in quantities sufficient to be widely available.

note- he didn't equate it to a CA and a BC use in SLN hands, but only to a BC. SLN CAs may be seen as not powerful enough to deal with issues on their own, so may not be used widely. Which makes sense, concerning the differing responsibilities of the RMN and SLN in peacetime.

Both Navies needed tons of presence units - light units with the minimum of warfighting capabilities, but still a complete package that is the equal of any other light unit out there. They needed them small enough to be everywhere, and cheap enough to be built in numbers. And in addition to the millions of small jobs a navy has, they needed to be seen, everywhere, as the face of the navy.

The Navies also both needed BCs - not necessarily for fighting, but for shutting down diplomatic issues before they start. A handful of BCs wandering into any system is enough to get any government to stand up and take notice, be them friendly or not. And when the fighting started, they became heavy raiders, able to quickly move to deal with issues, and smash lesser navies. So, they too needed to be built in largish quantities.

Where the 2 navies differed, is the RMN needed heavy pirate swatters - ships that were still small enough to be built in number, but had enough firepower to deal with Pirates far from home. They also needed to send a specific message, one of a firm, powerful hand, but not one which is necessarily threatening. And this is a CA - the Light Raider/Pirate swatter.

So the CA is the RMN ship of choice for dealing with forest fires - they are usually forward deployed and in position to deal with issues far from Manticore, and given to senior enough Captains to be able to handle issues without extra instructions.

And the SLN does not have to swat pirates - so the type isn't required and the firefighting tends to be more heavy handed - thus the use of BCs. So their CAs don't have that much of a unique peace time role.