Gravitics array and counter missile defense

This post highlights my ignorance: I do not know whether the following would work. So I am throwing this out to see if it sinks or floats.
There are two ways to kill an approaching missile: wedge fratricide or an energy beam (graser, x-ray laser from a warhead or laser from a point defensive array). The main way of directing this fire is to use targeting radar, but they are vulnerable to electro magnetic counter measures, such as dazzlers or dragon's teeth. Still the beam weapons absolutely need to use the radar, as they have to hit the missile body.
The first point that occurs to me is to compare the radar feed against the gravitic array feed. The gravitic array, which gets its data much faster than the radar (single trip at 60 times light speed versus round trip at light speed), can provide a plot of where the incoming missiles have been and those plots can be used to eliminate false images generated by ECM. The gravitic array does not give the location of the missile itself, but that missile has to be within its wedge whose location is given by the array.
The second point is more of a question about future tech: could a capable gravitic array be mounted on the counter missile itself, perhaps in place of the warhead? The warhead is only used if the wedge fratricide fails, when a laser shot through an open end is still possible. If the CM had an array then after initial targeting the counter missile could direct itself and be invulnerable to ECM. Fire, assign target then forget with a high probability of a hit. Clearly an array small enough to fit on a counter missile would not have the resolution of a ship mounted one, but it just has to resolve one out of a spread of missiles at little more than attack range. If you permit more than one counter missile to aim for the same target, then the CM only needs to resolve individual missiles as it gets within attack maneuver range.

tlb wrote:This post highlights my ignorance: I do not know whether the following would work. So I am throwing this out to see if it sinks or floats.
There are two ways to kill an approaching missile: wedge fratricide or an energy beam (graser, x-ray laser from a warhead or laser from a point defensive array). The main way of directing this fire is to use targeting radar, but they are vulnerable to electro magnetic counter measures, such as dazzlers or dragon's teeth. Still the beam weapons absolutely need to use the radar, as they have to hit the missile body.
The first point that occurs to me is to compare the radar feed against the gravitic array feed. The gravitic array, which gets its data much faster than the radar (single trip at 60 times light speed versus round trip at light speed), can provide a plot of where the incoming missiles have been and those plots can be used to eliminate false images generated by ECM. The gravitic array does not give the location of the missile itself, but that missile has to be within its wedge whose location is given by the array.
The second point is more of a question about future tech: could a capable gravitic array be mounted on the counter missile itself, perhaps in place of the warhead? The warhead is only used if the wedge fratricide fails, when a laser shot through an open end is still possible. If the CM had an array then after initial targeting the counter missile could direct itself and be invulnerable to ECM. Fire, assign target then forget with a high probability of a hit. Clearly an array small enough to fit on a counter missile would not have the resolution of a ship mounted one, but it just has to resolve one out of a spread of missiles at little more than attack range. If you permit more than one counter missile to aim for the same target, then the CM only needs to resolve individual missiles as it gets within attack maneuver range.

I suspect CMs already carry grav sensors. But Honorverse ECM has advanced to spoofing grav sensors. The most advanced missile version of that we’ve seen is the ghost rider dragonsteeth which let one missile produce at least a pod’s worth of fake missile grav signals - but I think even basic missile ECM is good enough to cause uncertainty about where the wedge actually is - only needs to spoof it by 20 km or so to cause a miss.

BTW normal CMs don’t carry any laserhead. It’s only the Viper anti-LAC missile (derived from a CMj that has that. Though it can still be used as a (more expensive) CM.

I think one advantage the ship mounted grav arrays has is that their size and spacing should make them more sensitive, and more resistant to spoofing. So even after using radios laser to forward that info to the CM it might give better data (despite the lag) that what the CM can see itself.

tlb wrote:This post highlights my ignorance: I do not know whether the following would work. So I am throwing this out to see if it sinks or floats.
There are two ways to kill an approaching missile: wedge fratricide or an energy beam (graser, x-ray laser from a warhead or laser from a point defensive array). The main way of directing this fire is to use targeting radar, but they are vulnerable to electro magnetic counter measures, such as dazzlers or dragon's teeth. Still the beam weapons absolutely need to use the radar, as they have to hit the missile body.
The first point that occurs to me is to compare the radar feed against the gravitic array feed. The gravitic array, which gets its data much faster than the radar (single trip at 60 times light speed versus round trip at light speed), can provide a plot of where the incoming missiles have been and those plots can be used to eliminate false images generated by ECM. The gravitic array does not give the location of the missile itself, but that missile has to be within its wedge whose location is given by the array.
The second point is more of a question about future tech: could a capable gravitic array be mounted on the counter missile itself, perhaps in place of the warhead? The warhead is only used if the wedge fratricide fails, when a laser shot through an open end is still possible. If the CM had an array then after initial targeting the counter missile could direct itself and be invulnerable to ECM. Fire, assign target then forget with a high probability of a hit. Clearly an array small enough to fit on a counter missile would not have the resolution of a ship mounted one, but it just has to resolve one out of a spread of missiles at little more than attack range. If you permit more than one counter missile to aim for the same target, then the CM only needs to resolve individual missiles as it gets within attack maneuver range.

1) Gravity signatures aren't really point sources, the best way to think of them is like heavy balls on a bed, they form a wide valley. Multiple signatures can merge and hide signatures behind them. A form of ECM "fuzzes" the gravitational signature, and can mask it at range. Multiple missiles at close range probably have overlaping signatures.

2) normal CMs don't have warheads, only The oversized Viper, or older chenical powered cms have a warhead

The Counter Missles are essentially a powerful wedge and enough electronics to accept targeting information for some maneuvering against its target. Putting more hardware on it would make it heavier, probably larger (and then you will have to play with your tubes, magazines etc).
If you miss your target- don't fly close enough to create either wedge fratracide or shred a missile/warhead on ballistic- you have gone too far from said target and are passing it very fast. To reengage that target would have to turn essentialy around but then both kill your original vector velocity and try to the overtake it, probably not going to happen as the idea alread is to intercept as far from your ship as possible which means the CMs are about done for power . Not sure you could hit a missle with a laserhead on a CM (if you could put one on) particularly since your range would be opening really really quickly.

Brigade XO wrote:The Counter Missles are essentially a powerful wedge and enough electronics to accept targeting information for some maneuvering against its target. Putting more hardware on it would make it heavier, probably larger (and then you will have to play with your tubes, magazines etc).
If you miss your target- don't fly close enough to create either wedge fratracide or shred a missile/warhead on ballistic- you have gone too far from said target and are passing it very fast. To reengage that target would have to turn essentialy around but then both kill your original vector velocity and try to the overtake it, probably not going to happen as the idea alread is to intercept as far from your ship as possible which means the CMs are about done for power . Not sure you could hit a missle with a laserhead on a CM (if you could put one on) particularly since your range would be opening really really quickly.

And. there's clutter. Maybe I have it wrong too, but I imagine the drive signatures the gravitics pick up as like the wake of a ship , a lot of little boats making their wakes makes it harder for gravitics to detect each point source, add the EW of dragons teeth and the intercept window (seconds) of thousands of missiles hurtling at you at c fractional velocities, and the relative vastness of space between the missiles (they have to worry about friendly wedge fratricide too) and it seems a bit ... challenging. Add to that software and tactics that were designed to meet dozens of missiles, not the hundreds even a BC(p) can lay down.

Box fire.

For the purposes of these threads, cutting edge counter measures like Dragonteath et al should be mentioned probably not at all.

It's mentioned that ships can move around a little within the wedge.
If missiles could do the same then it would explain some of the difficulties in shooting them with laser clusters or even autocannon.

Jonathan_S wrote:I suspect CMs already carry grav sensors. But Honorverse ECM has advanced to spoofing grav sensors. The most advanced missile version of that we’ve seen is the ghost rider dragonsteeth which let one missile produce at least a pod’s worth of fake missile grav signals - but I think even basic missile ECM is good enough to cause uncertainty about where the wedge actually is - only needs to spoof it by 20 km or so to cause a miss.

BTW normal CMs don’t carry any laserhead. It’s only the Viper anti-LAC missile (derived from a CMj that has that. Though it can still be used as a (more expensive) CM.

I think one advantage the ship mounted grav arrays has is that their size and spacing should make them more sensitive, and more resistant to spoofing. So even after using radios laser to forward that info to the CM it might give better data (despite the lag) than what the CM can see itself.

We know that ships and drones can vary the power of their wedge to make them harder to spot or to make them appear to be a different sized ship; but I am not aware of missiles doing much more than applying off, half power or full power to theirs. So I am interested to know more about this.
So far as I know the dragon's teeth provide multiple images on radar, not of the wedge on a gravitics array. So I am very interested in hearing more about this. It seems to me that if it were so easy to modulate wedges or spoof wedge images, then developing FTL communication would not have been as hard.
The present technology requires a communication channel to each CM throughout the attack phase (at least that is my understanding). If a fire and forget CM could be developed, then these communication requirements would be much reduced.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:This post highlights my ignorance: I do not know whether the following would work. So I am throwing this out to see if it sinks or floats.
There are two ways to kill an approaching missile: wedge fratricide or an energy beam (graser, x-ray laser from a warhead or laser from a point defensive array). The main way of directing this fire is to use targeting radar, but they are vulnerable to electro magnetic counter measures, such as dazzlers or dragon's teeth. Still the beam weapons absolutely need to use the radar, as they have to hit the missile body.
The first point that occurs to me is to compare the radar feed against the gravitic array feed. The gravitic array, which gets its data much faster than the radar (single trip at 60 times light speed versus round trip at light speed), can provide a plot of where the incoming missiles have been and those plots can be used to eliminate false images generated by ECM. The gravitic array does not give the location of the missile itself, but that missile has to be within its wedge whose location is given by the array.
The second point is more of a question about future tech: could a capable gravitic array be mounted on the counter missile itself, perhaps in place of the warhead? The warhead is only used if the wedge fratricide fails, when a laser shot through an open end is still possible. If the CM had an array then after initial targeting the counter missile could direct itself and be invulnerable to ECM. Fire, assign target then forget with a high probability of a hit. Clearly an array small enough to fit on a counter missile would not have the resolution of a ship mounted one, but it just has to resolve one out of a spread of missiles at little more than attack range. If you permit more than one counter missile to aim for the same target, then the CM only needs to resolve individual missiles as it gets within attack maneuver range.

I suspect CMs already carry grav sensors. But Honorverse ECM has advanced to spoofing grav sensors. The most advanced missile version of that we’ve seen is the ghost rider dragonsteeth which let one missile produce at least a pod’s worth of fake missile grav signals - but I think even basic missile ECM is good enough to cause uncertainty about where the wedge actually is - only needs to spoof it by 20 km or so to cause a miss.

BTW normal CMs don’t carry any laserhead. It’s only the Viper anti-LAC missile (derived from a CMj that has that. Though it can still be used as a (more expensive) CM.

I think one advantage the ship mounted grav arrays has is that their size and spacing should make them more sensitive, and more resistant to spoofing. So even after using radios laser to forward that info to the CM it might give better data (despite the lag) that what the CM can see itself.

I honestly doubt that CMs carry grav sensors. If they did, then since a grav sensor is a grav receiver, then it could receive grav pulses from the ship that launched it at FTL speeds. And as of the latest Honorverse novels at the time of this posting, the only missile that we know carries a grav receiver is the Apollo control missile (which also has carries a grav transmitter). And even that 3 stage MDM, with a fusion reactor instead of plasma capacitors, is twice the size of the attack missiles that it acts as a forward relay and AI for, and has no warhead of its own.

When the Manticorans were initially designing FTL into their attack missiles, one of the designs considered was to put the grav transmitter/receiver into each attack missile (pod launched, so the biggest they had for both mobile and static use). This was rejected because in order to maintain the existing size of the missile, they would have to remove one of the 3 drive stages in order to fit in the grav transmitter/receiver, turning the pod launched MDM into a pod launched DDM, albeit with FTL fire control.

Counter-missiles are much smaller than ship-killers and are described as being myopic, indicating that their on-board sensors are short-ranged. For these reasons I don't think we will see CMs mounting grav sensors any time soon in the Honorverse.

Grav sensors are marked on drawings of missiles.