Watch the Solarian League's demise

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee,...

Sol's citizens, or Solarian League Citizens? The former are basically sheep dancing to the Ministry of Education's tune. The latter are days, weeks, and months removed from MoE's spin doctors and dance to their own tune(s).

The League can and will collapse as fast as news of a SLN atrocity in their "commerce raiding" strategy can spread through the league. Whether it is a single event that triggers the dissolution or a combination of several, secessions will look like rats leaving a burning ship.

cthia wrote:Sol's citizens, in light of Joat's post which contains RFC's account pointing out that systems in the League are only loyal to themselves and not to the League. Which means that Sol's citizens would be loyal to itself. No surprise there. However, Sol is the real seat of power in the government if you sandblast and pressure wash all of the crud away, which emergency war powers can do in a minute.

If Sol's citizens are sheep, dancing to Abruzzi's tune, then that should be an easy job.

Joat42 wrote:Do you propose that Sol unilaterally clean out the Leagues bureaucracy and Mandarins?

Don't you think that the other League members will be a bit miffed by that action?

Especially considering that that type of action certainly would be against the League constitution.

cthia wrote:1. Only as a start. LOL

2. Who, of Sol's citizens, would care in light of the alternative.*

3. And it comes back to the League's Constitution. An idea that was conceived "in spirit" to protect its citizens. Certainly Old Earth's earlier constitution included a Constitution to preserve its life. Again and again, I have stated that the intent of the "spirit of the law" should override the "letter of the law." There is no way I believe the Constitution of Old Earth doesn't include emergency powers. Or that Old Earth's [C c]onstitution, wouldn't initiate it even if it didn't exist, if the gorilla's gonads, or the gorilla's parents, are on the chopping block.

*An alternative which includes the possibility that Old Earth may become a bit helpless in protecting itself from the dangers of space.

You know, emergency powers are only as effective as the size of the stick you are wielding.. And the Leagues stick are waaaay bigger than Sol's. Here reality always trumps any spirit, legal or rebel.

And if Sol would start a "clean out" they would gut themselves in the process. There exists only ONE reason why your scenario could be possible, to enforce an Eridani Edict violation by the League/SLN. But that also means that the League is already gutted and so is Sol.

The thing is and I have been saying this over and over again, if a system doesn't have the resources (money, military hardware, people etc) on hand there is no amount of hand waving that will help them suddenly build a navy that's effective in the short term.

Joat42 wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee,...

Sol's citizens, or Solarian League Citizens? The former are basically sheep dancing to the Ministry of Education's tune. The latter are days, weeks, and months removed from MoE's spin doctors and dance to their own tune(s).

The League can and will collapse as fast as news of a SLN atrocity in their "commerce raiding" strategy can spread through the league. Whether it is a single event that triggers the dissolution or a combination of several, secessions will look like rats leaving a burning ship.

cthia wrote:Sol's citizens, in light of Joat's post which contains RFC's account pointing out that systems in the League are only loyal to themselves and not to the League. Which means that Sol's citizens would be loyal to itself. No surprise there. However, Sol is the real seat of power in the government if you sandblast and pressure wash all of the crud away, which emergency war powers can do in a minute.

If Sol's citizens are sheep, dancing to Abruzzi's tune, then that should be an easy job.

Joat42 wrote:Do you propose that Sol unilaterally clean out the Leagues bureaucracy and Mandarins?

Don't you think that the other League members will be a bit miffed by that action?

Especially considering that that type of action certainly would be against the League constitution.

cthia wrote:1. Only as a start. LOL

2. Who, of Sol's citizens, would care in light of the alternative.*

3. And it comes back to the League's Constitution. An idea that was conceived "in spirit" to protect its citizens. Certainly Old Earth's earlier constitution included a Constitution to preserve its life. Again and again, I have stated that the intent of the "spirit of the law" should override the "letter of the law." There is no way I believe the Constitution of Old Earth doesn't include emergency powers. Or that Old Earth's [C c]onstitution, wouldn't initiate it even if it didn't exist, if the gorilla's gonads, or the gorilla's parents, are on the chopping block.

*An alternative which includes the possibility that Old Earth may become a bit helpless in protecting itself from the dangers of space.

You know, emergency powers are only as effective as the size of the stick you are wielding.. And the Leagues stick are waaaay bigger than Sol's. Here reality always trumps any spirit, legal or rebel.

And if Sol would start a "clean out" they would gut themselves in the process. There exists only ONE reason why your scenario could be possible, to enforce an Eridani Edict violation by the League/SLN. But that also means that the League is already gutted and so is Sol.

The thing is and I have been saying this over and over again, if a system doesn't have the resources (money, military hardware, people etc) on hand there is no amount of hand waving that will help them suddenly build a navy that's effective in the short term.[/quote]


No. Terra would not want the Solarian League out. It provides a real lot of jobs. A lot of money is spent by the super-rich of over a thousand planets. It is, as far as the people there are concerned, the center of the universe.

Far more likely is that the remnants of the League will remain and it will be a large remnant. There are a lot of Core Worlds and Heart Worlds that do business together. They are likely to stay linked.

But the huge power, the sense of omniscience, will be gone.

ldwechsler wrote:Far more likely is that the remnants of the League will remain and it will be a large remnant. There are a lot of Core Worlds and Heart Worlds that do business together. They are likely to stay linked.

But the huge power, the sense of omniscience, will be gone.

What remains after Honor Harrington arrives with Grand Fleet and a number of Eradani Edict and Deneb Accord violations is a problematic.

Here's the gist:

David Weber wrote: The Eridani Edict doesn't say that the total civilian population of a planet whose government and/or military has violated the Edict will be killed. It says that the political leadership which authorized the attack, and the military forces which carried out the attack, will be held accountable, and will be executed. A government which authorizes such an attack will be destroyed as a government-- after the execution of the specific politicians involved -- and replaced with something else. A military which carries out such an attack will be disbanded as a military -- after the execution of the military personnel who ordered and carried out the attack -- and may at some distant point in the future be replaced with something else.

For the full text, see the article "Expanding on the Eradani Edict" at the snippets site.

In other words, the Solarian League, as it exists, will be destroyed, root and branch. Now, it's quite possible that a bunch of core worlds will promptly decide to band together as a customs union and call themselves the Solarian League, but it will be a different organization.

The breakup will result in a lot of fragments, some of which may be quite large, and quite a few of which will have coalesced around the RF seed planets. This is what the MAlign wants to happen, after all.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee,...

Sol's citizens, or Solarian League Citizens? The former are basically sheep dancing to the Ministry of Education's tune. The latter are days, weeks, and months removed from MoE's spin doctors and dance to their own tune(s).

The League can and will collapse as fast as news of a SLN atrocity in their "commerce raiding" strategy can spread through the league. Whether it is a single event that triggers the dissolution or a combination of several, secessions will look like rats leaving a burning ship.

cthia wrote:Sol's citizens, in light of Joat's post which contains RFC's account pointing out that systems in the League are only loyal to themselves and not to the League. Which means that Sol's citizens would be loyal to itself. No surprise there. However, Sol is the real seat of power in the government if you sandblast and pressure wash all of the crud away, which emergency war powers can do in a minute.

If Sol's citizens are sheep, dancing to Abruzzi's tune, then that should be an easy job.

Joat42 wrote:Do you propose that Sol unilaterally clean out the Leagues bureaucracy and Mandarins?

Don't you think that the other League members will be a bit miffed by that action?

Especially considering that that type of action certainly would be against the League constitution.

cthia wrote:1. Only as a start. LOL

2. Who, of Sol's citizens, would care in light of the alternative.*

3. And it comes back to the League's Constitution. An idea that was conceived "in spirit" to protect its citizens. Certainly Old Earth's earlier constitution included a Constitution to preserve its life. Again and again, I have stated that the intent of the "spirit of the law" should override the "letter of the law." There is no way I believe the Constitution of Old Earth doesn't include emergency powers. Or that Old Earth's [C c]onstitution, wouldn't initiate it even if it didn't exist, if the gorilla's gonads, or the gorilla's parents, are on the chopping block.

*An alternative which includes the possibility that Old Earth may become a bit helpless in protecting itself from the dangers of space.

"Joat42"]You know, emergency powers are only as effective as the size of the stick you are wielding.. And the Leagues stick are waaaay bigger than Sol's. Here reality always trumps any spirit, legal or rebel.

And if Sol would start a "clean out" they would gut themselves in the process. There exists only ONE reason why your scenario could be possible, to enforce an Eridani Edict violation by the League/SLN. But that also means that the League is already gutted and so is Sol.

The thing is and I have been saying this over and over again, if a system doesn't have the resources (money, military hardware, people etc) on hand there is no amount of hand waving that will help them suddenly build a navy that's effective in the short term.

Pardon my bold.

Not according to the space in which the Mandarins are living. The League doesn't have any navy. Old Earth does.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee,...

Sol's citizens, or Solarian League Citizens? The former are basically sheep dancing to the Ministry of Education's tune. The latter are days, weeks, and months removed from MoE's spin doctors and dance to their own tune(s).

The League can and will collapse as fast as news of a SLN atrocity in their "commerce raiding" strategy can spread through the league. Whether it is a single event that triggers the dissolution or a combination of several, secessions will look like rats leaving a burning ship.

cthia wrote:Sol's citizens, in light of Joat's post which contains RFC's account pointing out that systems in the League are only loyal to themselves and not to the League. Which means that Sol's citizens would be loyal to itself. No surprise there. However, Sol is the real seat of power in the government if you sandblast and pressure wash all of the crud away, which emergency war powers can do in a minute.

If Sol's citizens are sheep, dancing to Abruzzi's tune, then that should be an easy job.

Joat42 wrote:Do you propose that Sol unilaterally clean out the Leagues bureaucracy and Mandarins?

Don't you think that the other League members will be a bit miffed by that action?

Especially considering that that type of action certainly would be against the League constitution.

cthia wrote:1. Only as a start. LOL

2. Who, of Sol's citizens, would care in light of the alternative.*

3. And it comes back to the League's Constitution. An idea that was conceived "in spirit" to protect its citizens. Certainly Old Earth's earlier constitution included a Constitution to preserve its life. Again and again, I have stated that the intent of the "spirit of the law" should override the "letter of the law." There is no way I believe the Constitution of Old Earth doesn't include emergency powers. Or that Old Earth's [C c]onstitution, wouldn't initiate it even if it didn't exist, if the gorilla's gonads, or the gorilla's parents, are on the chopping block.

*An alternative which includes the possibility that Old Earth may become a bit helpless in protecting itself from the dangers of space.

One of those dangers being the line of attack offered by Beowulf's junction right down its throat.

JohnRoth wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Far more likely is that the remnants of the League will remain and it will be a large remnant. There are a lot of Core Worlds and Heart Worlds that do business together. They are likely to stay linked.

But the huge power, the sense of omniscience, will be gone.

What remains after Honor Harrington arrives with Grand Fleet and a number of Eradani Edict and Deneb Accord violations is a problematic.

Here's the gist:

David Weber wrote: The Eridani Edict doesn't say that the total civilian population of a planet whose government and/or military has violated the Edict will be killed. It says that the political leadership which authorized the attack, and the military forces which carried out the attack, will be held accountable, and will be executed. A government which authorizes such an attack will be destroyed as a government-- after the execution of the specific politicians involved -- and replaced with something else. A military which carries out such an attack will be disbanded as a military -- after the execution of the military personnel who ordered and carried out the attack -- and may at some distant point in the future be replaced with something else.

For the full text, see the article "Expanding on the Eradani Edict" at the snippets site.

In other words, the Solarian League, as it exists, will be destroyed, root and branch. Now, it's quite possible that a bunch of core worlds will promptly decide to band together as a customs union and call themselves the Solarian League, but it will be a different organization.

The breakup will result in a lot of fragments, some of which may be quite large, and quite a few of which will have coalesced around the RF seed planets. This is what the MAlign wants to happen, after all.

Very interesting post John. Very!

Joat42 wrote:The League is constitutionally forbidden to use direct taxation to fund itself and its navy which means funds are going to be hard to come by. That means it would take a very long time to get up to speed - do you believe the SEM/GA is going to sit idly by when this happens?

They will do it and then tell you to file suit if you don’t like it. I understand the first court date is in 4 years and 3 months.

kzt wrote:

Joat42 wrote:The League is constitutionally forbidden to use direct taxation to fund itself and its navy which means funds are going to be hard to come by. That means it would take a very long time to get up to speed - do you believe the SEM/GA is going to sit idly by when this happens?

They will do it and then tell you to file suit if you don’t like it. I understand the first court date is in 4 years and 3 months.

That date will also be the issuance of the first continuance.

cthia wrote:

kzt wrote:The League is constitutionally forbidden to use direct taxation to fund itself and its navy which means funds are going to be hard to come by. That means it would take a very long time to get up to speed - do you believe the SEM/GA is going to sit idly by when this happens?

They will do it and then tell you to file suit if you don’t like it. I understand the first court date is in 4 years and 3 months.

Again. Probably wrong. First, the mandarins are not the League. Yes they run it but a) officially it is the politicians in charge and you can bet they'll push the idea that they were merely taking orders, and b) even if these five are arrested, they can be replaced.

The League is held together more than by an outdated constitution. There are a lot of trade agreements. Those that were unforced will continue.

But a lot of planets will want the security blanket of a League. They will not just end it. And if the Manticorans really try, the day after they leave, there will be private agreements.

ldwechsler wrote:The League is held together more than by an outdated constitution. There are a lot of trade agreements. Those that were unforced will continue.

But a lot of planets will want the security blanket of a League. They will not just end it. And if the Manticorans really try, the day after they leave, there will be private agreements.

Exactly. That's what I was referring to in my last post: the "Solarian League" will be disbanded, but the resulting fragments will coalesce around the idea of having a trade union and mutual protection, quite possibly with units of the old SLN as a ready-made navy. IIRC, RFC has been pretty open about there still being a "Solarian League" after the rubble stops bouncing, It's simply not going to be as large as it was; it may or may not be the largest fragment.

As far as digging out the people who were actually responsible: there are lots of secondary players who know exactly who could issue those orders and who couldn't. It's not necessary for the Mandarins to stand up and say: "We did it." Treecats are a valuable resource, and so will be the rogue Gendarme investigation.