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Watch the Solarian League's demise

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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 am

cthia
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The difference is that the tail of the Prince Rupert's Drop is connected to the head without space. The members of the League have a natural firebreak which is distance and politics.

Of course, in Harold's assessment, Beowulf represents the tail. Which is why the head chose to chew on its tail. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by Joat42   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:20 am

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As I have pointed out in another thread, the League isn't a homogeneous entity.

To quote rfc (Baen's Bar Honorverse, June 19, 2008):
runsforcelery wrote:First, the Solarian League isn't the sort of government that inspires an intense personal loyalty out of its subjects. If a citizen of the Solarian League has a powerful sense of patriotism, it's normally focused upon his home star system, not on the vast, mostly unseen, totally bureaucratic, and completely politically nonresponsive Rube Goldberg contraption called the "Solarian League." For the vast majority of Solarians, if asked to choose between the interests of their home system and of the League as a whole, and to decide whether his personal loyalty belonged to his home system or to the League as a whole, the decision would be the same as for the US Army officers who resigned their commissions to take service with the Confederacy following their home states' secession from the Union. It's always possible that if the Manticorans were sufficiently maladroit, or if some opposing faction (like, maybe, the Mesan Alignment?) were sufficiently adroit, at manipulating and spinning events, the Manties could end up doing something (or being accused of doing something) which would so infuriate Solarian public opinion that the Manties as an external threat actually brought about the creation of a true sense of League-wide patriotism. Given the current terminal state of the League's relationship with its citizenry, however, that is extremely unlikely. (Which doesn't mean that I couldn't figure out a way to do it if I needed to come up with a fresh credible bad guy to confront Manticore, of course.)

---
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:05 am

cthia
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Joat42 wrote:As I have pointed out in another thread, the League isn't a homogeneous entity.

To quote rfc (Baen's Bar Honorverse, June 19, 2008):
runsforcelery wrote:First, the Solarian League isn't the sort of government that inspires an intense personal loyalty out of its subjects. If a citizen of the Solarian League has a powerful sense of patriotism, it's normally focused upon his home star system, not on the vast, mostly unseen, totally bureaucratic, and completely politically nonresponsive Rube Goldberg contraption called the "Solarian League." For the vast majority of Solarians, if asked to choose between the interests of their home system and of the League as a whole, and to decide whether his personal loyalty belonged to his home system or to the League as a whole, the decision would be the same as for the US Army officers who resigned their commissions to take service with the Confederacy following their home states' secession from the Union. It's always possible that if the Manticorans were sufficiently maladroit, or if some opposing faction (like, maybe, the Mesan Alignment?) were sufficiently adroit, at manipulating and spinning events, the Manties could end up doing something (or being accused of doing something) which would so infuriate Solarian public opinion that the Manties as an external threat actually brought about the creation of a true sense of League-wide patriotism. Given the current terminal state of the League's relationship with its citizenry, however, that is extremely unlikely. (Which doesn't mean that I couldn't figure out a way to do it if I needed to come up with a fresh credible bad guy to confront Manticore, of course.)


You have a point.

However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee, the odor of burning beans would cause them to see the only way to save their pot is to fund the navy and research, then save the beans!

Well, salvage the beans at least.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by Joat42   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:27 am

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cthia wrote:..snip..
You have a point.

However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee, the odor of burning beans would cause them to see the only way to save their pot is to fund the navy and research, then save the beans!

Well, salvage the beans at least.

The League is constitutionally forbidden to use direct taxation to fund itself and its navy which means funds are going to be hard to come by. That means it would take a very long time to get up to speed - do you believe the SEM/GA is going to sit idly by when this happens?

---
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:55 am

cthia
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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:..snip..
You have a point.

However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee, the odor of burning beans would cause them to see the only way to save their pot is to fund the navy and research, then save the beans!

Well, salvage the beans at least.

The League is constitutionally forbidden to use direct taxation to fund itself and its navy which means funds are going to be hard to come by. That means it would take a very long time to get up to speed - do you believe the SEM/GA is going to sit idly by when this happens?


Absolutely not. But the SEM/GA's hands are somewhat tied if they are to follow, w/o fail, the Harrington Plan of not raising the tide and rousing the natives.

At any rate, a post I never got around to fashioning in the What is Earth's Government thread would involve questioning whether the Sol system, the seat of the real power of the League, has some sort of emergency powers to unilaterally act to save itself.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:59 am

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cthia wrote:However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee,...


Sol's citizens, or Solarian League Citizens? The former are basically sheep dancing to the Ministry of Education's tune. The latter are days, weeks, and months removed from MoE's spin doctors and dance to their own tune(s).

The League can and will collapse as fast as news of a SLN atrocity in their "commerce raiding" strategy can spread through the league. Whether it is a single event that triggers the dissolution or a combination of several, secessions will look like rats leaving a burning ship.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:16 am

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee,...


Sol's citizens, or Solarian League Citizens? The former are basically sheep dancing to the Ministry of Education's tune. The latter are days, weeks, and months removed from MoE's spin doctors and dance to their own tune(s).

The League can and will collapse as fast as news of a SLN atrocity in their "commerce raiding" strategy can spread through the league. Whether it is a single event that triggers the dissolution or a combination of several, secessions will look like rats leaving a burning ship.


Sol's citizens, in light of Joat's post which contains RFC's account pointing out that systems in the League are only loyal to themselves and not to the League. Which means that Sol's citizens would be loyal to itself. No surprise there. However, Sol is the real seat of power in the government if you sandblast and pressure wash all of the crud away, which emergency war powers can do in a minute.

If Sol's citizens are sheep, dancing to Abruzzi's tune, then that should be an easy job.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by Joat42   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:10 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee,...


Sol's citizens, or Solarian League Citizens? The former are basically sheep dancing to the Ministry of Education's tune. The latter are days, weeks, and months removed from MoE's spin doctors and dance to their own tune(s).

The League can and will collapse as fast as news of a SLN atrocity in their "commerce raiding" strategy can spread through the league. Whether it is a single event that triggers the dissolution or a combination of several, secessions will look like rats leaving a burning ship.
cthia wrote:Sol's citizens, in light of Joat's post which contains RFC's account pointing out that systems in the League are only loyal to themselves and not to the League. Which means that Sol's citizens would be loyal to itself. No surprise there. However, Sol is the real seat of power in the government if you sandblast and pressure wash all of the crud away, which emergency war powers can do in a minute.

If Sol's citizens are sheep, dancing to Abruzzi's tune, then that should be an easy job.

Do you propose that Sol unilaterally clean out the Leagues bureaucracy and Mandarins?

Don't you think that the other League members will be a bit miffed by that action?

Especially considering that that type of action certainly would be against the League constitution.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.

Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:49 pm

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:However, my counterpoint has always been what I think you fail to see at the opposite end of the spectrum. If Sol's citizens were to wake up and smell the coffee,...


Sol's citizens, or Solarian League Citizens? The former are basically sheep dancing to the Ministry of Education's tune. The latter are days, weeks, and months removed from MoE's spin doctors and dance to their own tune(s).

The League can and will collapse as fast as news of a SLN atrocity in their "commerce raiding" strategy can spread through the league. Whether it is a single event that triggers the dissolution or a combination of several, secessions will look like rats leaving a burning ship.
cthia wrote:Sol's citizens, in light of Joat's post which contains RFC's account pointing out that systems in the League are only loyal to themselves and not to the League. Which means that Sol's citizens would be loyal to itself. No surprise there. However, Sol is the real seat of power in the government if you sandblast and pressure wash all of the crud away, which emergency war powers can do in a minute.

If Sol's citizens are sheep, dancing to Abruzzi's tune, then that should be an easy job.
Joat42 wrote:Do you propose that Sol unilaterally clean out the Leagues bureaucracy and Mandarins?

Don't you think that the other League members will be a bit miffed by that action?

Especially considering that that type of action certainly would be against the League constitution.


1. Only as a start. LOL

2. Who, of Sol's citizens, would care in light of the alternative.*

3. And it comes back to the League's Constitution. An idea that was conceived "in spirit" to protect its citizens. Certainly Old Earth's earlier constitution included a Constitution to preserve its life. Again and again, I have stated that the intent of the "spirit of the law" should override the "letter of the law." There is no way I believe the Constitution of Old Earth doesn't include emergency powers. Or that Old Earth's [C c]onstitution, wouldn't initiate it even if it didn't exist, if the gorilla's gonads, or the gorilla's parents, are on the chopping block.

*An alternative which includes the possibility that Old Earth may become a bit helpless in protecting itself from the dangers of space.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Watch the Solarian League's demise
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:47 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:*An alternative which includes the possibility that Old Earth may become a bit helpless in protecting itself from the dangers of space.


Or simply may become less capable or inadequate in doing so.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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