The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...

PeterZ wrote:North Harchong doesn't want the MH back. South Harchong won't want them UNLESS there enough prospective mates for them OR they have a channel to direct their aggression. I say this because men under 30 are primed to compete for mates. The frustration of being unable to find mates will come out somehow, so it is best to relocate them with families or relocate them in an area that will benefit from their heightened aggression.

That the North found a way to offset the loss of labor means they are unlikely to want further disruption by sending more people down South. South Harchong will only want to incorporate enough men into the civilian labor force to balance out the number of available women. Any remainder would be a disruptive force in the civilian population. As part of a military force directed at securing the Desnairian mines for Harchong, the MH has immense value for the South.

Do we agree with Sharleyean's speculation that the South will want to seceed fron the North? If so having all those extra armed soldiers along with all the arms that got stranded in the south once the jihad's supply lines were cut should prevent the north from effectively intervening to prevent that from happening...

Or maybe the south can just conquer the north!

Don

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n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:North Harchong doesn't want the MH back. South Harchong won't want them UNLESS there enough prospective mates for them OR they have a channel to direct their aggression. I say this because men under 30 are primed to compete for mates. The frustration of being unable to find mates will come out somehow, so it is best to relocate them with families or relocate them in an area that will benefit from their heightened aggression.

That the North found a way to offset the loss of labor means they are unlikely to want further disruption by sending more people down South. South Harchong will only want to incorporate enough men into the civilian labor force to balance out the number of available women. Any remainder would be a disruptive force in the civilian population. As part of a military force directed at securing the Desnairian mines for Harchong, the MH has immense value for the South.

Do we agree with Sharleyean's speculation that the South will want to seceed fron the North? If so having all those extra armed soldiers along with all the arms that got stranded in the south once the jihad's supply lines were cut should prevent the north from effectively intervening to prevent that from happening...

Or maybe the south can just conquer the north!

Don

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I don't disagree. The MH can hold off any northern force in a War of Northern Agression.

I still doubt that the MH would be used to attack anyone any time soon. As I mentioned before, Duchairn and Magwair still need it to at least offset any Siddarmarkian or Charisian adventurism, despite the existing peace treaty. They cannot have their secular allies fighting among themselves, especially now that they need to maintain a united front. Nor can they risk a disruption in the tithe flow from Desnair that would necessarily follow any such attack on the gold mines. And if North Harchong wants to maintain its control over the South, it can't simply hand the entire MH to it and hope the South doesn't get any ideas on independence.

Then there's the issue of getting that many men down to the south. They'd still need to be fed along the way and I serious doubt Dohlar will allow that many men to simply pass through without some assurances that that's all they will do. Then they'll need to cross the sea and again, I doubt Charis will simply provide the sea lift capability for some good will that may or may not be earned (something tells me Harchong will unwilling to show any good will towards Charis).

I still favor the stop-gap, "temporary solution" of keeping the northerner troops in the Temple Lands, and putting them to work there while their families will slow gravitate in that direction. It might change the social dynamic of those Harchong provinces near the border with the Temple Lands, making them more reform oriented, while those nearest the capital of Shang-mi will be the most doctrinaire.

thanatos wrote:I still doubt that the MH would be used to attack anyone any time soon. As I mentioned before, Duchairn and Magwair still need it to at least offset any Siddarmarkian or Charisian adventurism, despite the existing peace treaty. They cannot have their secular allies fighting among themselves, especially now that they need to maintain a united front. Nor can they risk a disruption in the tithe flow from Desnair that would necessarily follow any such attack on the gold mines. And if North Harchong wants to maintain its control over the South, it can't simply hand the entire MH to it and hope the South doesn't get any ideas on independence.

Then there's the issue of getting that many men down to the south. They'd still need to be fed along the way and I serious doubt Dohlar will allow that many men to simply pass through without some assurances that that's all they will do. Then they'll need to cross the sea and again, I doubt Charis will simply provide the sea lift capability for some good will that may or may not be earned (something tells me Harchong will unwilling to show any good will towards Charis).

I still favor the stop-gap, "temporary solution" of keeping the northerner troops in the Temple Lands, and putting them to work there while their families will slow gravitate in that direction. It might change the social dynamic of those Harchong provinces near the border with the Temple Lands, making them more reform oriented, while those nearest the capital of Shang-mi will be the most doctrinaire.

Who is going to pay to keep them there? The church is broke...

Don

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n7axw wrote:

thanatos wrote:I still doubt that the MH would be used to attack anyone any time soon. As I mentioned before, Duchairn and Magwair still need it to at least offset any Siddarmarkian or Charisian adventurism, despite the existing peace treaty. They cannot have their secular allies fighting among themselves, especially now that they need to maintain a united front. Nor can they risk a disruption in the tithe flow from Desnair that would necessarily follow any such attack on the gold mines. And if North Harchong wants to maintain its control over the South, it can't simply hand the entire MH to it and hope the South doesn't get any ideas on independence.

Then there's the issue of getting that many men down to the south. They'd still need to be fed along the way and I serious doubt Dohlar will allow that many men to simply pass through without some assurances that that's all they will do. Then they'll need to cross the sea and again, I doubt Charis will simply provide the sea lift capability for some good will that may or may not be earned (something tells me Harchong will unwilling to show any good will towards Charis).

I still favor the stop-gap, "temporary solution" of keeping the northerner troops in the Temple Lands, and putting them to work there while their families will slow gravitate in that direction. It might change the social dynamic of those Harchong provinces near the border with the Temple Lands, making them more reform oriented, while those nearest the capital of Shang-mi will be the most doctrinaire.

Who is going to pay to keep them there? The church is broke...

Don

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Aaand we get back to Charsian generosity.. What non-financial consideration will Cayleb and Sharley ask for in exchange for assistance? Move them south.

I suspect that moving them south is more likely to gain a favorable response from Charis than leaving them on the border as a semi-permanent threat to Siddarmark.

Don

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n7axw wrote:I suspect that moving them south is more likely to gain a favorable response from Charis than leaving them on the border as a semi-permanent threat to Siddarmark.

Don

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Except, as you pointed out, the Church is broke. Even along the border with Siddarmark, the MH will not constitute a serious threat to it given that the first thing Duchairn must do is cut the military budget (which is what is eating up the Church's overall budget). He might be able to force Harchong to cover the maintenance costs for its troops but I seriously doubt it would be enough to for any significant incursions into Siddarmarkian territory.

And again PeterZ, why would Charis be so generous as to finance the move down south? The more problems Duchairn has in solidifying his control over the realms that remain under the Church's influence, the better it will be for the agenda of the Inner Circle. And I am certain that stationing some Charisian units on Siddarmark's western borders will allow those troops to gain combat experience against the sort of guerrilla warfare that those troops might be limited to (should they defy their's superiors' orders and restart the Jihad). Nor can Charisian financial aid guarantee good will (much less warm and fuzzy feelings) towards it on the part of the MH. They might just feel that Charis owes them for tearing God's Church asunder.

As I said before, I think that Duchairn is likely to face a massive recession, possibly even a depression within a few short years and will be faced with a choice between embracing the new technologies to save the economy (which is likely to cause him serious religious problems within the Church) or ask for Charisian financial aid (which is likely to come at a steep price). Charis would likely make moral demands, such as the abolition of any and all forms of slavery and serfdom from all realms. Or conversely, Charis would request that the Church grant them extraterritorial holdings for their "trade missions", through which they spread their innovation and their religious reforms (which are far more radical that Duchairn's reforms). The only question is whether the Church will be in any position to refuse such demands.

Thanatos,

Impoverished people cannot adopt innovations. Duchairn knows better than anyone just how dire the CoGA's finances truly are. They cannot adequately fund the innovations they need to adopt. They can't fund the experimentation necessary to truly acquire an innovative national mindset. Lastly, there isn't time to wait until most of Safehold gets desperate enough to accept Charisian help.

So, Charis contracts any new merchie steamer built to move the MH south. They loan The Lord Protector the funds to house and feed the MH as they farm the abandoned Siddermark farms while waiting to get shipped south. Their labor is part of the restitution to Siddermark. Charis issues zero coupon gold notes with an issue date printed on it maturing in some number of years with a set interest rate. The notes are exchangeable for gold on demand in Telesberg at face value plus accrued interest upon maturity. These paper Charisian notes will be worth much more than paperTemple marks but less that gold coins at least initially. They will circulate as gold coins are hoarded at first but eventually these increasing value notes will be hoarded and gold coins circulated. The Temple will pay their suppliers with the Charisian paper. That additional liquidity will stave off a depression in the loyalist nations and Cayleb will control what will become the reserve currency of choice on Safehold.

Even saved from a depression, Duchairn has serious problems as you post. He can't do much about how Harchong uses the MH down south. They will push for social change internally and be used to expand into Desnair. Charis will end up supporting some Desnarian faction that wants to abolish slavery. Harchong will have a few provinces eager to abolish serfdom, while most of Harchong does not. All the while the CoGA cannot compell any of the participants to stop. The power of the CoGA wanes ever more.

Yes, Duchairn will have to accept much of the Cayleb's and Sharley's demands like the extraterritorial rights in loyalist nations and a statement preferring the abolition of serfdom. Most nations will accept that as a means of accessing the Imperial Bank of Charis' funding. All that will be an easier sell if the nation's of Safehold are already used to using Charisian notes from their funding the MH's relocation. The more the nation's of Safehold use Charisian wealth to fund innovation, the more powerless the Proscriptions become. By the time the return happens, whatever returns will have a much more Inependent thinking Safehold to contend with and a bunch o ton of technology spread all over the planet. A few Rakurai strikes won't cauterize the "infection" this time.

I wouldn't want a hungry and armed MH on my door step. As far as them going into farming on abandoned land, someone would have to feed them until the following year's harvest.

Then too, what happens when the owners start reclaiming their homes?

Dunno how practical this is. If they are not going to be returned to their homes in N. Harchong, then they should be moved south as soon as possible. As for why the allies should pick up the tab, call it self defense.

Don

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n7axw wrote:I wouldn't want a hungry and armed MH on my door step. As far as them going into farming on abandoned land, someone would have to feed them until the following year's harvest.

Then too, what happens when the owners start reclaiming their homes?

Dunno how practical this is. If they are not going to be returned to their homes in N. Harchong, then they should be moved south as soon as possible. As for why the allies should pick up the tab, call it self defense.

Don

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Farming will include rebuilding damaged property for absent homeowners. The gig is purely temporary until the property regains permanent residents. That's where the loan/grant to Stonahr comes in. He pays for the food and rebuilding material and may charge the MH back for the upkeep. Duchairn pays the MH and reparations to Siddermark. Cayleb loans the funds to Duchairn pay restitution.

5 years after the jihad, Cayleb is THE central financial figure on Safehold. The CoC is the moral guardian of God's Will to a far greater degree than the Inquisition. As proof just look at the prosperity Charisian leadership is ushering in to Safehold.