Honorverse ramblings and musings

You have to note that the SLN didn't appear to pay any attention to anything Manticore (or Haven or the Aldermani) have been doing since before the Haven-Manticore war and certainly not really looking while it was going on.
Where were the observers? Who was reading the reports and dispatches filed by reporters, correspondents and the local system newspapers? Not, apparently SLN ONI. Perhaps it is partilay or mostly the Malignment influence diverting information by playing to the internal fighting and jockying for postion withing ONI and the Navy.

Or perhaps it is the not-invented-here problem we keep having thrown at us.

In any case, Manticore got the League to not (legaley ) sell weapons and modern SL military tech to Haven and Haven was buying it anyway - at great cost and shipping it a very long way around Manticore observation.

We keep not hearing about anyone in SLN or the level of the Mandarins having any idea about what Erwhon has for "new" military tech. So, nobody noticed when Erwhon started sending cadets to Saganami Island AND running a serious amount of people through a naval exchange program with Manticore AND vastly expanding it's SDF including 50 or more wallers built with Manticorain tech (even if it was "Manty lite")?
The whole Maya thing is more forgivable with relation to the SLN given that Maya's command structure from the Gov. down was in the process of both setting up a defection, expanding its navy and eliminating (lots of accidents) a bunch of people who were likely to cause any problems. That was particularly to include people who were playing the whole BF/FF/OFS and SL Bureaucracy game of clawing up the ladder by various means.

Nobody in the SL would look at what was happening out in a very hot war over 20 years with ever growing numbers of ships and an intital very lopsided mis-match between Haven and Manticore?

Now the SLN's best work about gathering information, sharing information and actualy trying to do something has to be going on by officers who are essentily committing treason to do what their jobs are?
And Technodyne and other 3rd parties can't get their hands on Manticore or Haven (or Aldermani, Erwhon etc) tech and what they can get is being fed to them. Fed to them by the Alignment to the point of being produced someplace nobody has seen and the SL and Technodyne does't seem to be doing much more than buying and using someboy elce's stuff.
Wonderful.

i have to admit the ignoring 20 years of reports thing has always struck me as insane even for the "invincible" SLN.

Dauntless wrote:i have to admit the ignoring 20 years of reports thing has always struck me as insane even for the "invincible" SLN.

A RW equivalent took place just prior to the start of WWII.
Claire Chenault leading the AVG aka Flying Tigers was passing reams of data on the strengths and weaknesses of the Japanese Zero fighter but the USAAF basically round filed it. This took place in late 1941.

saber964 wrote:

Dauntless wrote:i have to admit the ignoring 20 years of reports thing has always struck me as insane even for the "invincible" SLN.

A RW equivalent took place just prior to the start of WWII.
Claire Chenault leading the AVG aka Flying Tigers was passing reams of data on the strengths and weaknesses of the Japanese Zero fighter but the USAAF basically round filed it. This took place in late 1941.

Hehehe. Although the SLN wasn't quite as bad. The information actually percolated up to the admirals. They just didn't believe it.

Brigade XO wrote:You have to note that the SLN didn't appear to pay any attention to anything Manticore (or Haven or the Aldermani) have been doing since before the Haven-Manticore war and certainly not really looking while it was going on.
Where were the observers? Who was reading the reports and dispatches filed by reporters, correspondents and the local system newspapers? Not, apparently SLN ONI. Perhaps it is partilay or mostly the Malignment influence diverting information by playing to the internal fighting and jockying for postion withing ONI and the Navy.

Or perhaps it is the not-invented-here problem we keep having thrown at us.

Al Fanoudi was reading them and getting his career properly trashed for his efforts. Nobody wants to rock the boat by passing information they know the boss doesn't want to hear. Its kind of like following the 20 year war between Ivory Coast and Eritrea (so to speak).

We keep not hearing about anyone in SLN or the level of the Mandarins having any idea about what Erwhon has for "new" military tech. So, nobody noticed when Erwhon started sending cadets to Saganami Island AND running a serious amount of people through a naval exchange program with Manticore AND vastly expanding it's SDF including 50 or more wallers built with Manticorain tech (even if it was "Manty lite")?
The whole Maya thing is more forgivable with relation to the SLN given that Maya's command structure from the Gov. down was in the process of both setting up a defection, expanding its navy and eliminating (lots of accidents) a bunch of people who were likely to cause any problems. That was particularly to include people who were playing the whole BF/FF/OFS and SL Bureaucracy game of clawing up the ladder by various means.

Erewhon, in all fairness, was part of the Manticore Alliance, it would have been normal for Erewhon to send their cadets to Saganami. They swapped sides after the cease fire, so they had 2nd generation Manty, which the SL knew nothing about and Technodyne had some clue. SL had no Idea Erewhon gave Haven a great tech boost (all but ghostrider IIRC).

The new construction is basically Havenite which Barregos is lying to the SLN about by submitting fake blueprints, specs etc.

Nobody in the SL would look at what was happening out in a very hot war over 20 years with ever growing numbers of ships and an intital very lopsided mis-match between Haven and Manticore?

Like nobody would pay much attention to Sudan/South Sudan either.

And Technodyne and other 3rd parties can't get their hands on Manticore or Haven (or Aldermani, Erwhon etc) tech and what they can get is being fed to them. Fed to them by the Alignment to the point of being produced someplace nobody has seen and the SL and Technodyne does't seem to be doing much more than buying and using someboy elce's stuff.
Wonderful.

Not sure that part about the MAlign is true. Technodyne is not as blind as the SLN, They developed the Trebuchets that wreaked havoc with Terekov's squadron at Meyers. They are close to, but not identical with, what the MAlign has developed. Haven has been trying to buy tech from them, which stopped suddenly at the cease fire ending the first Haven war, and didn't bother trying again when the war resumed.

They seem far too alert to have missed that big signal that they don't want/need SL tech.

pappilon wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:And Technodyne and other 3rd parties can't get their hands on Manticore or Haven (or Aldermani, Erwhon etc) tech and what they can get is being fed to them. Fed to them by the Alignment to the point of being produced someplace nobody has seen and the SL and Technodyne does't seem to be doing much more than buying and using someboy elce's stuff.
Wonderful.

Not sure that part about the MAlign is true. Technodyne is not as blind as the SLN, They developed the Trebuchets that wreaked havoc with Terekov's squadron at Meyers. They are close to, but not identical with, what the MAlign has developed. Haven has been trying to buy tech from them, which stopped suddenly at the cease fire ending the first Haven war, and didn't bother trying again when the war resumed.

They seem far too alert to have missed that big signal that they don't want/need SL tech.

Hasn't there been some evidence in the Torch series that the MAlign's intention was to raise the level of tensions in the region of Erewhon, whilst simultaneously using their agent in High Ridge's government Elaine Descroix to sow disunity in the Manticoran Alliance to force Erewhon back towards the Solarian League? As I understood it the intention was Technodyne would get a good look at the Manticoran tech & pass it onto the MAlign.

Also, in Shadow of Freedom during the debrief after Hongbo's interrogation Mike Henke referred to one of her questions where she suggested to Hongbo that one of the aims of the plan to use Monica as a proxy was so they could get their hands on Manticoran tech.

Technodyne stealing Manty tech was always why they were involved in Monica. The fact that they were willing to go so far should had set off alarm bells in the SLN as to how good Manty tech was, but not even Frontier Fleet seems to have caught the implication.

As for the raising of tensions in order to pull Erewhon out, the point for the alignment was always to restart the war, it was the Maya Sector which was trying to pull them out with the general understanding from the rest of the league bureaucracy that Erewhon would then turn to Technodyne. I forget what the Coordinators (the corporate front for the alignment [likely the strategy council in particular]) thought they were doing, but it can be sure that it did not include the strategy council's plan b, which involved Mannerheim.

Rincewind wrote:

pappilon wrote:Not sure that part about the MAlign is true. Technodyne is not as blind as the SLN, They developed the Trebuchets that wreaked havoc with Terekov's squadron at Meyers. They are close to, but not identical with, what the MAlign has developed. Haven has been trying to buy tech from them, which stopped suddenly at the cease fire ending the first Haven war, and didn't bother trying again when the war resumed.

They seem far too alert to have missed that big signal that they don't want/need SL tech.

Hasn't there been some evidence in the Torch series that the MAlign's intention was to raise the level of tensions in the region of Erewhon, whilst simultaneously using their agent in High Ridge's government Elaine Descroix to sow disunity in the Manticoran Alliance to force Erewhon back towards the Solarian League? As I understood it the intention was Technodyne would get a good look at the Manticoran tech & pass it onto the MAlign.

Also, in Shadow of Freedom during the debrief after Hongbo's interrogation Mike Henke referred to one of her questions where she suggested to Hongbo that one of the aims of the plan to use Monica as a proxy was so they could get their hands on Manticoran tech.

Just noticed I have been a forum member for 5 years now, (and still only Captain of the list)

Dauntless wrote:i have to admit the ignoring 20 years of reports thing has always struck me as insane even for the "invincible" SLN.

You have to remember that any information coming into SLN's ONI departments has to pass a couple of filters.
1. Any reports what neobarbs are up to are always suspect and not particularly important.
2. Is the information politically correct (ie. punish the bearer of bad news)?
3. Does the information fit with the view SLN has (ie. not invented here syndrome)?
4. MAlign operatives or stooges may downplay or alter the information to keep the SLN in the dark.

The reverse is also somewhat true for RMN's ONI, before the clashed with SLN they didn't really pay attention to what technological advancements where going on in the league since their main effort where totally focused on Haven and SLN as an opponent wasn't on the radar. The Cataphracts where a nasty surprise for the RMN when SLN used them for the first time.

I thought first cataphracts were used against the Maya Sector admrial @ torch?

the RMN got copies of his reports from the torchies. Abigail and Niomi Kaplan discuss them at one point, I think a sim on the way to New tuscany?

the first person to use actual catahpracts against the RMN was Filatra @ second manticore.

if you mean the missiles used at monica, then my understanding is that they were not cataphracts but system defence pods.