Remaining holes in SLN intel

George J. Smith wrote:

kzt wrote:It's probably a coincidence that we both defeated the Germans in WW2 and have not faced a military threat from them since.

Probably because they joined forces with the other country (Napoleonic France) that tried to take over all of Europe, and formed what has now become the EU, instead of war they are using an insidious campaign to subjugate the rest of Europe.

What a stupid statement!
I really see it as an insult of us Germans AND French.
We are so lucky we got rid of you greedy englanders and YOUR mandarins, which wanted to rule over all of us in Europe.

cthia wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:
Oh, but we know! It's in A Rising Thunder. The League didn't care about diplomatic immunity, because noone was crazy enough to go on the mat with it (until Manticore dared to question the superiority of the Almighty and Invincible Solarian League and its Navy, that was). There was simply no need for it. That's the reason the Mandarins discussed the incarceration of the Manticoran (and even the Beowulfan) ambassadors to the League.

Outside the League - that's a different kettle of fish. There it is at least custom (and I think, even codified interstellar law - but I can't give textev for that) that ambassadors and other diplomatic personal have immunity and are allowed to go home unhindered in case of crisis or open war.

That is also why they didn't see a need to have an Embaasy on other planets. Our 800# weigh-in, is our Embassy!

pappilon wrote:And the question remains. What, exactly is their value to the mandarins/SL as their world is coming apart at the edges? Yes, there should be diplomatic immunity. More to the point, Carmichale should have been recalled as soon as Filareta's attack was supposed to commence.

That he wasn't or didn't take it upon himself to leave speaks more of Manticore's desire for a diplomatic settlement than any common sense on the part of the Mandarins.

cthia wrote:Their value to the Mandarins is more like window dressing. It is the "principle" of the matter for the Mandarins. Don't make the mistake of judging their actions based on logic. The Mandarins have never reacted out of logic, but rather out of emotion. Seizing the diplomatic ship in orbit, detaining Carmichael and the delegation are the actions of an enraged bully, who can't do anything else but punch a hole in the nearby wall. The Mandarins disrespect for diplomatic immunity is simply an act of angry aggression taken out on the nearest wall. It's more of a reflex action than anything else. Plus, there just may be a bargaining chip contained within.

Plus the fact that they simply must make some kind of a statement to the uppity, arrogant neobarbs. They can't make a direct military statement but they can make a political one. In absence of any kind of statement is acceptance of the Manticoran POV.

Attacking Beowulf is also the action of an enraged bully.* Lack of a response means accepting a neobarb's wrath.

Another value of Carmichael and the delegation is political in nature. If they can be turned into enemies of the state, then the League can rally for help by pulling on the heartstrings of patriotism.

Remember, that's what Cordelia ransom tried to do. She tried to politically ransom off Harrington's life for her cause.


*Sort of like Mike Tyson biting Evander Holyfield's ear off, out of defeat and frustration. LOL

cthia wrote:Plus the fact that they simply must make some kind of a statement to the uppity, arrogant neobarbs. They can't make a direct military statement but they can make a political one. In absence of any kind of statement is acceptance of the Manticoran POV.

I think this could have been better accomplished as part of a "throw Byng under the bus" plan. See since Byng is getting everything (including the destroyed station) blamed on him, that basically makes him a pirate and the ships working for him pirate ships. (Any given individual on those ships may or may not be a pirate. For example they could have been tricked.) Therefore what actually happened is some Manticorians stopped some pirates. Which is great!

To drive the point home you dispense prize money to the Manticorians who took part in it. Now Manticore could refuse and try and tie Byng to the Solarian League, but that would involve Henke denying the crews prize money which would be an asshole move.

You also dispense "humanitarian aid" to all the families of people Byng killed. Most of those people will be on New Tuscany, which means you'll be mostly paying New Tuscany, which should squelch any idea that this is the League somehow buying their way out of trouble. Manticore again could refuse the payments, but then they're screwing over families. Plus Manticore probably wants to be able to repudiate officers who do something stupid too.

Now the Manticorians didn't stick anything to the Great and Powerful League. The Manticorians were working for the League. This obviously isn't some trick to buy their way out of trouble, otherwise why would New Tuscany be getting most of the money? Best of all it doesn't really set any precedent except in cases of rogue individuals who murder tens of thousands of people.

Tada! The Great and Powerful League is still the unchallenged ruler of the galaxy. Now get an R&D program and start modernizing your fleet!

In summary, a lot of problems can be solved by throwing a sacrificial lamb or five under the nearest bus.

George J. Smith wrote:

cthia wrote:You make an interesting point. Yet I still wonder about potential overlap of bailiwick. Same as with the FBI and CIA.
For instance, the Mandarins would want to keep abreast of any uppity systems stirring the pot about seceding.

snip... for brevity

As far as the Mandarins are concerned nobody with even a half functioning brain would want to leave that fine upstanding institution which is the Solarian League. (Well not until Beowulf decided they would have a plebiscite to determine if they would leave, and even then the Mandarins thought they would still be able to overturn the decision if it went the wrong way from their point of view.)

Indeed. If they do, we'll simply browbeat them back.

It's just that in the early days, considering the mechanics of the interaction between the two parties, I'd think there would have been some dissenters (early on) when they began to see the true colors of OFS. So early on in the relationship, at least, I'd think the League had to keep everybody honest. I just can't see a planet intentionally accepting graft, greed and extortion unless first being browbeat. Subsequent disagreements are usually resolved without a steal-toed boot.

If they didn't keep a close eye on them, satellite systems will be fleecing the League. Dealing under the table.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

cthia wrote:Plus the fact that they simply must make some kind of a statement to the uppity, arrogant neobarbs. They can't make a direct military statement but they can make a political one. In absence of any kind of statement is acceptance of the Manticoran POV.

I think this could have been better accomplished as part of a "throw Byng under the bus" plan. See since Byng is getting everything (including the destroyed station) blamed on him, that basically makes him a pirate and the ships working for him pirate ships. (Any given individual on those ships may or may not be a pirate. For example they could have been tricked.) Therefore what actually happened is some Manticorians stopped some pirates. Which is great!

To drive the point home you dispense prize money to the Manticorians who took part in it. Now Manticore could refuse and try and tie Byng to the Solarian League, but that would involve Henke denying the crews prize money which would be an asshole move.

You also dispense "humanitarian aid" to all the families of people Byng killed. Most of those people will be on New Tuscany, which means you'll be mostly paying New Tuscany, which should squelch any idea that this is the League somehow buying their way out of trouble. Manticore again could refuse the payments, but then they're screwing over families. Plus Manticore probably wants to be able to repudiate officers who do something stupid too.

Now the Manticorians didn't stick anything to the Great and Powerful League. The Manticorians were working for the League. This obviously isn't some trick to buy their way out of trouble, otherwise why would New Tuscany be getting most of the money? Best of all it doesn't really set any precedent except in cases of rogue individuals who murder tens of thousands of people.

Tada! The Great and Powerful League is still the unchallenged ruler of the galaxy. Now get an R&D program and start modernizing your fleet!

In summary, a lot of problems can be solved by throwing a sacrificial lamb or five under the nearest bus.

Of course, the old bus trick could have saved them. But, the League's arrogance hadn't come any closer than a bee's knees to accepting the fact that a band of uppity neobarbs can cause them to sacrifice a SLN officer. Any League citizen for that matter. Did someone tell the uppity neobarbs they had magic pixie dust?

I'll go out on a limb and say a fair number of readers thought that's exactly what the League would do. Sacrifice Byng. In the manner of the RMN, each officer worth her weight in metal has already sent notice of possible reprimand and disavowment back to the Queen.

To be honest though, the League can still do that. Especially since Byng is dead. "We just discovered all of the facts concerning Byng and New Tuscany. The League is a large machine. Tracking down one errant part takes time."

By this time Byng is water under the bridge for both sides.

Since Byng we have had Spindle, 2nd Manticore, Lacoon 1, Lacoon 2, Meyers, Mesa, and more...

Mention Byng, and the response is eh...

Don

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The people Byng had killed by slaughtering the unprotected SEM destroyers were from primarily Manticore home system and quite possibly some people from Grayson. Not sure if thre would have been any crew from other alled star systems at the time.
Even if you include Crandall, it's the same pool of systems for any people who died in the defence at Spindel unless there were Talbot people serving on the RMN ships engaged.

That Byng could be more-or-less sacrificed as a loose cannon is sort of plausible, at least back in the SL as he appears to have had a reputation amoung the SLN and you MIGHT be able to muster "testimony" from surviving FF officers and crew that Byng was -in hindsight- exhibiting odd behavior and had some kind of breakdown. The space station blew up- we don't really have a definitive report about what happened from the FF nor New Tuscany side of it- but Bing "clearly" over reated- in hindsight- and SL is VERY SORRY. Not good for the SLN, the ability of FF (officers) to identify and take some reasonable action- iffy- but there ARE FF survivors, it is just that most are sitting on New Tuscany (as far as we know) awaiting a ride home unless they are waiting for replacment of the entire software suites for their ships. That "fixing" of Byng's surviving fleet is probably not going to happen any time soon if none of it has been done yet.

Crandall is another discussion. Massivly larger fleet, out on long range maneuvers and excercises and she hauled her fleet off to crush someone to teach them (and the rest of the universe) a lesson. Oops. It took her a while to put that manuver together and then came thundering in to kill people and subjugate the system.
Not so much an overreaction as both execution of POLICY by an SLN Admiral with an (inept) knee-jerk reaction to the Byng debacle. What happend and why- she didn't care why, only that Byng got himself killed and his fleet surrendered.

The Mandarins clearly don't see themselves being able to survive this if they have to take blame on the SLN as well as on themselves for allowing this to get to that point. Then you have them sending (well, someone did) Fillerta out with Raging Justice and go try and crush the Manticore Home System. Yeah, you take responsiblity for all of this and you are finished. At this point, the Mandarin's probably are sure they will die as a result of this unless they can keep upping the ante untill they will. And they now have to pray they win because it keeps getting worse.

Throwing Byng under the bus was clearly nota plausible option for the Mandarins. Even EIII all the way in her castle knew that from the dismissal she got from the Mandarins. Then they would have had to also toss Crandall under the bus. Of course her actions could have been dismissed with a [justified]claim that she was out of communication loop and following her own initiative.

By the time Filareta entered Manticore's space, it was too late for any bus tossing. The fox was well and truly in the hen house.

pappilon wrote:Throwing Byng under the bus was clearly nota plausible option for the Mandarins. Even EIII all the way in her castle knew that from the dismissal she got from the Mandarins. Then they would have had to also toss Crandall under the bus. Of course her actions could have been dismissed with a [justified]claim that she was out of communication loop and following her own initiative.

By the time Filareta entered Manticore's space, it was too late for any bus tossing. The fox was well and truly in the hen house.

The Mandarins had no reason to worry about what happened with Byng. It was clear they knew he was nuts and the data they got supported Manticore. But no one in centuries had stood up to the League and they played games presuming things would just wind down and go away.

They were not aware of what Crandall was doing. But that made it clear that they were in trouble and they reverted to what they usually did when faced with a small nation. They sent the navy to take it over.

They look terrible right now. I doubt they will die but they could well be ousted from their positions. I think that is why they are fighting the battles that we've seen in snippets.

But they are not in full control and Manticore has most of the advantages. What might same them TO SOME DEGREE would be finding evidence of MAlign and that they've been tricked. They could find some nice human sacrifices instead of themselves. At the end, they might be still in place but in a far smaller League.

ldwechsler wrote:Then officially we should simply shoot all the guys (and gals)
that try to kill us in the Middle East. Few wear uniforms.

Note that Palestinians who kill Israeli are generally arrested. If shot on the spot, the UN protests. The Geneva Accords support certain groups and not others.

Legally we could. However, it's not the best idea to have your troops do that and there are many bleeding-heart types that would object.

What the UN does about Israel isn't a realistic measure, you can basically count on the UN siding with the Arabs vs Israel no matter what is right or wrong.