Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Why don't the GSN occupy Masada, instead of the RMN? Available troop strength?

That argument -- or one very similar that ignored the religious fanaticism of the Faithful -- is ultimately what got Reginald Houseman "chastised" by Honor.

Chastised? You mean bitchslapped, which I just received from you and Honor, and Eagleeye.

One nit though. We are all assuming that Masada would accept such a blasphemous gift, or rather, if their interpretation of Tester's wishes will coincide with it.

It is correct for someone to always remind us that the answer to these types of questions for the Faithful and the Graysons will be vested in their religion.

Remember, even though Sword Simmons rook advantage of the Havenite ships, they didn't take the decision lightly. And it wasn't a unanimous decision to do so.

I thought the rational for SEM to hold the Masada System and provide whatever police presence nessisary was to avoid putting Graysons down there and exacerbating the problme by having the Masadan's in daily face contact with the "heretics".
Avoiding an ongoing campaign of bloody religious attacks by The Faithfull and attempting to set up a stable government without constant -from the Faithfull's point of view- provacation to incite said Faithfull to murder every "heretic" they see on a daily bases was the goal.

Forcing people to take Prolong doesn't sound like something Manticore is likely to do. Letting the present Faithfull leadership die off and being out of overt power is much better. I don't see the committed Faithful taking Prolong, too far outside what their understand (and twisting) of the Book allows.
Wether or not the next generation of Masadan's is less a bunch of religious fanatics is an open question. Also depends on what Manticore "peacekeepers" is able to as far as getting clerical based law out of the legal system of the planet.

If you want to explore some perhaps twisted ideas, Masada could be used as a place to park all those SLN POWs.....my, what an intersting time the interation of the Faithfull and several hundred thousand Solly naval pows with no particular fervent religious leanings (that we know of) and the apparent Solly bent for situational ethics and somewhat problematic approach to where legal ends and profitable begins. Mix for a few years till the war with the SL ends and see what the result is. Hey, we put them on a "nice" habitable planet and the only they they couldn't do was leave....they just had to uphold the SLN code of military (snicker) justice.

cthia wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:
Grayson troops as an occupying force on Masada?? Sorry, it's definitely not my intention to insult you, cthia ... but I have to ask: ARE YOU MAD???

If you let Graysons even near Masada, the whole planet will go booom! Scratch that, I mean, it will go BOOOMMMM!!!. You simply can't ignore several hundred years of really bad blood and mutual hatred. The Graysons, as the victors, tend maybe to a more sane approach in regard of Masada and Masadans, but the other way around? No way in hell. A hundred years down the road, as soon as the whole lot of the old fanatics are dead and a new generation, raised under and used to Manticoran occupation and order, is available, then, maybe, you can substitute (over several decades) the Manticoran occupying forces with Graysons. Sooner - and you've a box seat, 1st row, for the real life explosion of a whole planet.

That's pretty plain enough Eagleeye. And you didn't insult me. Sometimes another set of eyes is essential.

Your response reminds me of the joke that says if you place a dog a chicken and a cat in a cage, they'll learn to play together

Put a Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim in a cage, and they won't survive the first night.

But all that is a moot point. I'm asking why GSN forces can't occupy the system. The troops will only be needed when they go down in armor, kicking ass anyway. It is the impetus behind the notion that Grayson would never bombard Masada from space. Albeit, the same objection could apply to the GSN occupying the orbitals.

IOW, all Grayson really needs from Manticore to assist with Masada is a ground-side occupying force. Not the RMN.

Theemile wrote:My inner argument on the Masada argument: do you, as Manticore, withhold prolong from Masada, allowing generations to quickly come and go, and the old ways (and generations pushing them) die out sooner. Or, do you offer Prolong to the populace, knowing that by doing so, you are creating monsters cause by the young indoctrinated by the old guard, which you will have to deal with for 200 years or more, requiring centuries or millennia for generational prejudices and sentiments to die off.

Is it even considered humane to withhold Prolong? If you do - what will be the resentment from the people of Masada forced to live and die short lives without it.

For that matter, will the Church even allow such evil drugs to be taken? In which case this argument is moot...

What a question.

What a very interesting question. Should the fact that prolong is a medical technology prevent it from being utilized as a military weapon? Win by attrition? By what measure is a man required to share his accomplishments with his enemies? What about his spiritual enemies? Is humanity the answer here?

I think this argument would eventually butt heads directly up against the separation of church and state, and indeed, the spirit of the law as far as the separation of church and state is ultimately concerned.

Brigade XO wrote:I thought the rational for SEM to hold the Masada System and provide whatever police presence nessisary was to avoid putting Graysons down there and exacerbating the problme by having the Masadan's in daily face contact with the "heretics".
Avoiding an ongoing campaign of bloody religious attacks by The Faithfull and attempting to set up a stable government without constant -from the Faithfull's point of view- provacation to incite said Faithfull to murder every "heretic" they see on a daily bases was the goal.

Forcing people to take Prolong doesn't sound like something Manticore is likely to do. Letting the present Faithfull leadership die off and being out of overt power is much better. I don't see the committed Faithful taking Prolong, too far outside what their understand (and twisting) of the Book allows.
Wether or not the next generation of Masadan's is less a bunch of religious fanatics is an open question. Also depends on what Manticore "peacekeepers" is able to as far as getting clerical based law out of the legal system of the planet.

If you want to explore some perhaps twisted ideas, Masada could be used as a place to park all those SLN POWs.....my, what an intersting time the interation of the Faithfull and several hundred thousand Solly naval pows with no particular fervent religious leanings (that we know of) and the apparent Solly bent for situational ethics and somewhat problematic approach to where legal ends and profitable begins. Mix for a few years till the war with the SL ends and see what the result is. Hey, we put them on a "nice" habitable planet and the only they they couldn't do was leave....they just had to uphold the SLN code of military (snicker) justice.

Subjecting even the Faithful to SLN personnel seems like excessively cruel and unjust punishment.

To be honest, I never could swallow the Faithful having to constantly endure interacting with the Manticoran infidels that were there to keep peace any more than marginally better than stomaching the Graysons. The Faithful are an extremely arrogant and fanatic lot. They could barely stomach being closed up with the Havenites aboard ship.

I'm just not seeing the Faithful trusting and allowing infidels impeded access to their bodies to do only Tester knows what.

They are not about to allow infidels to taint their holy temples(mind and body) with infidel evil.

Well, if a culture is going to reject all sorts of medical treatment, then they are going to (the culture) just have to deal with the effects of that.
If the leadership of the Faithful won't let their people have Prolong it is quite possible that some people- once they hear and understand what is being offered- will find ways to have access to it, at least for their children. The Faithfull former ruling leadership would all be too old to have Prolong. How many of them would be willing to have their children get it is another question.
I don't recall any discussion about Prolong being part of medical treatment on Mesada but that could just by a gap in memory.

Much of the Grayson population has ended up embracing a lot of change brought by the contact and cooperation with Manticore but Manticore was not forcing them to modify their religion. From what I gather in the story line, the Grayson perspective of The Test generaly allows them to evaluate things based on knowledge and the tenents of the faith.
That is not to say that there were not nor are not religious fundamentalists and fanatics in the population but those are not the ones who are either incharge or able to dictate policy. Manticore doesn't hand down fiats to Grayson. It does make agreements and offers. For the most part, we see (what we do see of it) people who make decisions based on negotion and people are presented as having to make up thier own minds. Not what you get with The Faithful.
Note that what we were shown of the operations of The Faithfull high leadership both in their councils and home life included an awfull lot of hypocrisy of action, manipulation of the letter of convention and flaunting of things they can get away with......nice portrays of corrupt and self-serving theocratic politicians in the worst possible light.

Brigade XO wrote:Well, if a culture is going to reject all sorts of medical treatment, then they are going to (the culture) just have to deal with the effects of that.
If the leadership of the Faithful won't let their people have Prolong it is quite possible that some people- once they hear and understand what is being offered- will find ways to have access to it, at least for their children.

Indeed. Albeit, I wouldn't think that the people looking to circumvent the religious laws against the heretic evil and receive prolong anyway, are the people Manticore needs to worry about. It is the die hard fanatics who don't even want the stuff in the system who are the worry. The less fanatic, who may end up with the treatment anyways, will only serve to bring the Faithful down from within.

Brigade XO wrote:The Faithfull former ruling leadership would all be too old to have Prolong. How many of them would be willing to have their children get it is another question.
I don't recall any discussion about Prolong being part of medical treatment on Mesada but that could just by a gap in memory.

Much of the Grayson population has ended up embracing a lot of change brought by the contact and cooperation with Manticore but Manticore was not forcing them to modify their religion. From what I gather in the story line, the Grayson perspective of The Test generaly allows them to evaluate things based on knowledge and the tenents of the faith.
That is not to say that there were not nor are not religious fundamentalists and fanatics in the population but those are not the ones who are either incharge or able to dictate policy. Manticore doesn't hand down fiats to Grayson. It does make agreements and offers. For the most part, we see (what we do see of it) people who make decisions based on negotion and people are presented as having to make up thier own minds. Not what you get with The Faithful.

Indeed. The thing is, Grayson was prepared for change. They were meeting their test. And remember, it wasn't, isn't, easy for them to do so either. There is still opposition to Protector Benjamin's plan. Manticore didn't force anything on the citizens of Grayson, no, but the opposition felt that Protector Benjamin was forcing the Mayhew Restoration on them.

Brigade XO wrote: Note that what we were shown of the operations of The Faithfull high leadership both in their councils and home life included an awfull lot of hypocrisy of action, manipulation of the letter of convention and flaunting of things they can get away with......nice portrays of corrupt and self-serving theocratic politicians in the worst possible light.

Fanatics who totally misinterpret tenets, religious laws and teachings are as common as religion and are as dangerous as war.

IMHO, the uncivil war with the Faithful filtered the excrement out of Grayson religion, and what is left are the true believers and worthy inheritors of Tester's will.

cthia wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Well, if a culture is going to reject all sorts of medical treatment, then they are going to (the culture) just have to deal with the effects of that.
If the leadership of the Faithful won't let their people have Prolong it is quite possible that some people- once they hear and understand what is being offered- will find ways to have access to it, at least for their children.

Indeed. Albeit, I wouldn't think that the people looking to circumvent the religious laws against the heretic evil and receive prolong anyway, are the people Manticore needs to worry about. It is the die hard fanatics who don't even want the stuff in the system who are the worry. The less fanatic, who may end up with the treatment anyways, will only serve to bring the Faithful down from within.

Brigade XO wrote:The Faithfull former ruling leadership would all be too old to have Prolong. How many of them would be willing to have their children get it is another question.
I don't recall any discussion about Prolong being part of medical treatment on Mesada but that could just by a gap in memory.

Much of the Grayson population has ended up embracing a lot of change brought by the contact and cooperation with Manticore but Manticore was not forcing them to modify their religion. From what I gather in the story line, the Grayson perspective of The Test generaly allows them to evaluate things based on knowledge and the tenents of the faith.
That is not to say that there were not nor are not religious fundamentalists and fanatics in the population but those are not the ones who are either incharge or able to dictate policy. Manticore doesn't hand down fiats to Grayson. It does make agreements and offers. For the most part, we see (what we do see of it) people who make decisions based on negotion and people are presented as having to make up thier own minds. Not what you get with The Faithful.

Indeed. The thing is, Grayson was prepared for change. They were meeting their test. And remember, it wasn't, isn't, easy for them to do so either. There is still opposition to Protector Benjamin's plan. Manticore didn't force anything on the citizens of Grayson, no, but the opposition felt that Protector Benjamin was forcing the Mayhew Restoration on them.

Brigade XO wrote: Note that what we were shown of the operations of The Faithfull high leadership both in their councils and home life included an awfull lot of hypocrisy of action, manipulation of the letter of convention and flaunting of things they can get away with......nice portrays of corrupt and self-serving theocratic politicians in the worst possible light.

Fanatics who totally misinterpret tenets, religious laws and teachings are as common as religion and are as dangerous as war.

IMHO, the uncivil war with the Faithful filtered the excrement out of Grayson religion, and what is left are the true believers and worthy inheritors of Tester's will.

Cthia,

Could you be thinking that the Faithful regard all outsiders the same? The faithful don't like Manticorians. But they absolutely hate and despise Graysons whom they regard as heretics who betrayed God and whom are in possession of the planet God originally intended for his children.

Don

-

cthia wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Well, if a culture is going to reject all sorts of medical treatment, then they are going to (the culture) just have to deal with the effects of that.
If the leadership of the Faithful won't let their people have Prolong it is quite possible that some people- once they hear and understand what is being offered- will find ways to have access to it, at least for their children.

Indeed. Albeit, I wouldn't think that the people looking to circumvent the religious laws against the heretic evil and receive prolong anyway, are the people Manticore needs to worry about. It is the die hard fanatics who don't even want the stuff in the system who are the worry. The less fanatic, who may end up with the treatment anyways, will only serve to bring the Faithful down from within.

Brigade XO wrote:The Faithfull former ruling leadership would all be too old to have Prolong. How many of them would be willing to have their children get it is another question.
I don't recall any discussion about Prolong being part of medical treatment on Mesada but that could just by a gap in memory.

Much of the Grayson population has ended up embracing a lot of change brought by the contact and cooperation with Manticore but Manticore was not forcing them to modify their religion. From what I gather in the story line, the Grayson perspective of The Test generaly allows them to evaluate things based on knowledge and the tenents of the faith.
That is not to say that there were not nor are not religious fundamentalists and fanatics in the population but those are not the ones who are either incharge or able to dictate policy. Manticore doesn't hand down fiats to Grayson. It does make agreements and offers. For the most part, we see (what we do see of it) people who make decisions based on negotion and people are presented as having to make up thier own minds. Not what you get with The Faithful.

Indeed. The thing is, Grayson was prepared for change. They were meeting their test. And remember, it wasn't, isn't, easy for them to do so either. There is still opposition to Protector Benjamin's plan. Manticore didn't force anything on the citizens of Grayson, no, but the opposition felt that Protector Benjamin was forcing the Mayhew Restoration on them.

Brigade XO wrote: Note that what we were shown of the operations of The Faithfull high leadership both in their councils and home life included an awfull lot of hypocrisy of action, manipulation of the letter of convention and flaunting of things they can get away with......nice portrays of corrupt and self-serving theocratic politicians in the worst possible light.

Fanatics who totally misinterpret tenets, religious laws and teachings are as common as religion and are as dangerous as war.

IMHO, the uncivil war with the Faithful filtered the excrement out of Grayson religion, and what is left are the true believers and worthy inheritors of Tester's will.

n7axw wrote:Cthia,

Could you be thinking that the Faithful regard all outsiders the same? The faithful don't like Manticorians. But they absolutely hate and despise Graysons whom they regard as heretics who betrayed God and whom are in possession of the planet God originally intended for his children.

Don

-

Not consciously anyways. No, I'm not making that horrible mistake. It would be the same mistake governments across our globe make regarding religious conflict. "It is personal between A and B, and logic has no place in the face of personal religious animosity."

Again, it is what Honor had to bitchslap into Houseman. What I am proposing, is to remind us that in the Faithful's eyes, no one other than they are worthy. They abhor the Manticoran infidels as well, it is just not the same personal type hate born in blood.

On the heels of Theemile's interesting question, why not let the Faithful have Grayson and take the much better planet? Then respect the Faithful when they reject Allison's medical help with the high mortality of infant birth rates, along with prolong. Before long, Grayson would have both planets.

It would be a plan looking far enough into the future that it'd please the MAlign.

Taking a bit to think about it, I think we are guilty of underestimating the Faithful's fanaticism.