Remaining holes in SLN intel

quite possibly a cat wrote:If the Mandarins can convince the other League worlds that Manticore violated the Epsilon Eridani Edict defeating Manticore will be a trivial task. Manticore is currently placing missiles made by Beowulf in their tubes and around their planets. It would be trivial for Beowulf to sabotage the missiles and obliterate the entire Manticorian navy. As Shannon would say "Oops".

If Manticore gets solidly pinned for violating the Edict they lose.

Well at least assuming the people don't execute their government for it, which I suspect is a distinct possibility. Especially seeing as how Manticore has been saved by the Edict. The Yawata strike would have killed vastly more people if not for the League's Edict protecting Manticore. Hell, what if those stealth ships with unknown origins come back and don't feel like following the Edict the second time around? They'll need to start a bit farther out, but they aren't going to need to scout the location of planets in round two. If Manticore shows the Edict is no longer enforced Manticore is starting down the apocalypse.

And if that happens, many other questionable dominoes - questionable as far as the League is concerned, will begin to fall in rapid succession against Manticore as a result. Like intimidating Beowulf to act against the League in Beowulfan space.

Really, what was Beowulf to do against the RMN that the SLN couldn't -- as spun by the League. Etc., etc.

quite possibly a cat wrote:If the Mandarins can convince the other League worlds that Manticore violated the Epsilon Eridani Edict defeating Manticore will be a trivial task. Manticore is currently placing missiles made by Beowulf in their tubes and around their planets. It would be trivial for Beowulf to sabotage the missiles and obliterate the entire Manticorian navy. As Shannon would say "Oops".

If Manticore gets solidly pinned for violating the Edict they lose.

Well at least assuming the people don't execute their government for it, which I suspect is a distinct possibility. Especially seeing as how Manticore has been saved by the Edict. The Yawata strike would have killed vastly more people if not for the League's Edict protecting Manticore. Hell, what if those stealth ships with unknown origins come back and don't feel like following the Edict the second time around? They'll need to start a bit farther out, but they aren't going to need to scout the location of planets in round two. If Manticore shows the Edict is no longer enforced Manticore is starting down the apocalypse.

I think the main problem with the propaganda aspect is that people are trying to - as the old proverb goes - 'have their cake and eat it.'

Manticore isn't going to get solidly pinned for violating the Edict, because:
a) the Mandarins work for the League, which is now at war with Manticore.
b) The people they are trying to convince (such as Beowulf) know that the League itself, through OFS, has violated the Eridani Edict. Frontier Fleet, under OFS orders, have used KEWs to destroy civilian targets for terror purposes.

c)The people in the Verge and Talbott Quadrant (and on Beowulf) are more likely to regard Mesa and the League as a bunch of liars than they are Manticore.

d) The Manticorans themselves have experience of corrupt regimes accusing their naval heroes of things they didn't do, and tend to react by supporting said hero. See Echoes of Honor.

There's also e) They Didn't Do It.

So while the propaganda may work for those who wish to be convinced by it (see also Echoes of Honor), it won't work for those who don't. Basically, you're going to end up in the same place you were when the propaganda started - one side (the GA) will believe Manticore's version. The other side (Core World League) will believe (or pretend to believe) the Mandarins and Audrey Hanrahan.

The 'have your cake and eat it' principle is particularly in operation if the Mandarins or Hanrahan try and connect Zilwicki and Cachat to Manticore and Haven (rather than Torch, which had already declared war, and was thus entitled to send enemy agents behind the lines).

Because if they connect Zilwicki on the grounds that he's a half-pay officer (if he is) and Cachat on the grounds that he's a Special Officer (which he definitely is), we really are opening the entire 'jurisdiction' can of worms. Zilwicki's entitled to be tried by RMN court martial, not under civilian law at all and Cachat - well, I'm not entirely sure Haven has changed the law that says 'Special Officers do whatever the heck they think is necessary.'

The only other jurisdiction is Mesa, currently in the process of a) suffering a major revolt and b) being invaded. Admittedly Zilwicki and Cachat are on Mesa right now, but who's going to be running the court system?

I also can't help thinking that the MAlign have been too clever for their own good. That is, they've set Manticore up as the patsy for all those nuclear explosions, but anyone who examines the locations is going to very quickly find out that the RMN appears to be incredibly incompetent. Because the bombs went off at the wrong locations - they're not targeting tactical locations, and they also make no sense for terrorising the Mesan slaveholders.

Why on Mesa would a navy come in, guns blazing, and blow up an isolated nature reserve? Especially since the Admiral concerned has a previous reputation for surgical strikes?

If the appropriate textev of UH is subpoenaed and placed on exhibit...

And it sounded like Cachat was essentially a loose warhead. Officially in the employee of the Republic of Haven's (sworn?) intelligence service whose directives he followed on the infrequent occasions when they made sense to him.

Prosecution:
It would seem that Haven is guilty of at least reckless endangerment and complicity, knowingly allowing that loose warhead to freely roam the galaxy on unsuspecting areas of mankind without a straight jacket. It is downright irresponsible of them for not defusing the loose munition long ago.

I'm going to have to go back and reread that exchange between Cachat and Pritchard upon his return. She was not amused as I recall. She knew he was a Cashew nut then. LOL

If push comes to shove and the legal wars get too heated, Gus may have to be thrown under the bus without fuss.

****** *

Question, on the off chance of Cachat being disemboweled err disavowed. What would that mean for him, legally? I recall Michelle putting her head on the possible disavowing block a time or two, as well as others. Does that mean they'd be turned over to another government for adjudication? Would the fifth in line for secession be extradited to serve prison time, or worse, on another planet?

dis·a·vow
disəˈvou]

VERB

1. deny any responsibility or support for:
2. "he appears to be in denial of his own past, which he continually disavows"

synonyms: deny · disclaim · disown · wash one's hands of · repudiate · reject · renounce · abandon · give up · turn one's back on · disown · cast off · lay aside · forswear · abjure · forsake

Wouldn't that mean Cachat would have to be extradited, thrown to the wolves?

Right after the Mandarins and a vast laundry list of OFS and SLN officers get finished cleaning the blood off their hands from Centuries of murder on mass scales for purely political and perosnal profit reasons, they can show up in somebody's court and start saying things about others---not going to happen, the cleaning off the blood part.

Hey, lets send the Navy to trash a system and quite possibility the inhabited industrialized planet there because the CONTINUE to trade with Beowulf after we have expressed our displeasure for Beowulf 1) sticking to the letter of the SL Constitution regarding our sending a SLN FLEET through the wormhole they have a partail ownership and demanding they assist in our attempted invasion and overthrow of their long term allied trading partner SEM ---with which we were NOT at war. and 2) Beowulf wants to leave the SL because the SL is patiently and demonstratabley corrupt (and we are having a tantrum about it both because they are right and a whole bunch of the shadow government of the League is about to have much of it's dirty laundry dumped out in public).

Tha Mandarins and all sorts of other people find the alternative to attempting to negotaite their way out of the problegms (with SEM, Haven, Beowulf etc) totaly impossible. That is primarily that since they would have to 1) either admit they were mistaken or that they made a mistake, 2) would have to take (or sucessfuly lay off e whichs isn't likely) the name/responsibility for what has been done or ordered, and 3) not only having the responsibility on their heads going to cost them position & power, it is quite likely to lead to confication of their wealth and end their lives.
The Alignment, of course, both doesn't care and would be just a happy if the entire actual operating structure of the League crashes as a result of this- since that is ONE of their goals in the establishment of the Alignment as the rulers and directors of humanity.
Nice problem.

Bluesqueak wrote:I think the main problem with the propaganda aspect is that people are trying to - as the old proverb goes - 'have their cake and eat it.'

Manticore isn't going to get solidly pinned for violating the Edict, because:
a) the Mandarins work for the League, which is now at war with Manticore.
b) The people they are trying to convince (such as Beowulf) know that the League itself, through OFS, has violated the Eridani Edict. Frontier Fleet, under OFS orders, have used KEWs to destroy civilian targets for terror purposes.

c)The people in the Verge and Talbott Quadrant (and on Beowulf) are more likely to regard Mesa and the League as a bunch of liars than they are Manticore.

d) The Manticorans themselves have experience of corrupt regimes accusing their naval heroes of things they didn't do, and tend to react by supporting said hero. See Echoes of Honor.

There's also e) They Didn't Do It.

So while the propaganda may work for those who wish to be convinced by it (see also Echoes of Honor), it won't work for those who don't. Basically, you're going to end up in the same place you were when the propaganda started - one side (the GA) will believe Manticore's version. The other side (Core World League) will believe (or pretend to believe) the Mandarins and Audrey Hanrahan.

I am not going to talk about any legal aspect because I was told we should not do so and it is not germane to the problem Manticore can have with the propaganda charges around the Eridani Edit.

Let's step back to what the Harrington plan is hoping to achieve against the Solarian League: break it into small groups that will each agree to an armistice and then trade with Manticore and its allies. No amount of military success can by itself guarantee peace for the alliance, because at some point the technological differences will be addressed; just as they were during the ceasefire with Saint Just. Manticore has to achieve a friendly position with the majority of the core worlds, because that is where the technological strength of the League resides; the Verge is not enough by itself - the people in the Verge and the Talbott Quadrant and Beowulf are actually incidental to what Manticore needs to achieve diplomatically in the major worlds.
I expect the core worlds are only beginning to pay attention now and have not made up their minds about the changes. But if instead of becoming friendly with Manticore, the majority of them become solidly against the alliance due the one principle that has united the foreign policy of the League; then Manticore will ultimately lose and the Malign might well win. Obviously for the near future the forces of Manticore and their allies can do almost anything they; anything except force a lasting peace.
And what is the alternative to believing that Manticore and Torch and Haven, in some combination, have committed violations of the Eridani Edit? Only that some secret force, that only Manticore, Torch and Beowulf believe exists, has been wantonly killing people on Mesa and manipulating events galaxy wide.

PS. The idea that Beowulf can be turned against Manticore by propaganda is fantastical and I do not consider it believable.

Bluesqueak wrote:Manticore isn't going to get solidly pinned for violating the Edict, because:
a) the Mandarins work for the League, which is now at war with Manticore.
b) The people they are trying to convince (such as Beowulf) know that the League itself, through OFS, has violated the Eridani Edict. Frontier Fleet, under OFS orders, have used KEWs to destroy civilian targets for terror purposes.

c)The people in the Verge and Talbott Quadrant (and on Beowulf) are more likely to regard Mesa and the League as a bunch of liars than they are Manticore.

d) The Manticorans themselves have experience of corrupt regimes accusing their naval heroes of things they didn't do, and tend to react by supporting said hero. See Echoes of Honor.

It won't be a corrupt regime accusing Manticore of anything. It will be impartial reporters relaying the overwhelming evidence that Manticore is guilty. Quite possibly confirmed by Manticorian reporters. For crying out loud, Mesan investigators into the nuclear terrorism were assassinated by weapons that were only produced in Manticore and only sold to the Manticorian military. Anton used a nuclear weapon on Mesa. He enabled the terrorists to get the nuke used on a park full of children. Then Henke's massive fleet was in orbit of Mesa and sending stuff into the atmo when the nukes went off. Unless Manticore attempts a cover-up these things aren't getting hidden. Worse, Manticore's alternative story is a centuries old conspiracy of genetic supermen, who have nano so advanced that it can mind control people and left not a trace on Mesa. That's not a plausible alternative.

Free Bonus: What kind of maniac sends troops down to a planet of rogue-bioengineers, let alone super rogue-bioengineers, with super advanced nano and a penchant for mass murdering their own people? How is that supposed to end?

tlb wrote:PS. The idea that Beowulf can be turned against Manticore by propaganda is fantastical and I do not consider it believable.

It would be the facts that do it. Hell, if Manticore has the brilliant idea of calling in Beowulf to "independently investigate" it might be Beowulf's own investigation.

Honestly, things look really bad for Henke and friends right now.

Hmm... it occurs to me that a common tactic in these sort of things today is finding an independent investigator to look into it and then clear you. Now, obviously this only works if you're actually innocent. There is a conveniently located star nation that hates genetic slavery and hasn't been corrupted by the Mandarins, and is less than supporting of the Mandarins right over a hyper-bridge. They seem an ideal group to do an independent investigation of the incidents on Mesa.

tlb wrote:I am not going to talk about any legal aspect because I was told we should not do so and it is not germane to the problem Manticore can have with the propaganda charges around the Eridani Edit.

Who gave that Edict?

Unless it is commensurate with or it indirectly relates to. They can always be charged in a civil suit.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Free Bonus: What kind of maniac sends troops down to a planet of rogue-bioengineers, let alone super rogue-bioengineers, with super advanced nano and a penchant for mass murdering their own people? How is that supposed to end?

tlb wrote:PS. The idea that Beowulf can be turned against Manticore by propaganda is fantastical and I do not consider it believable.

quite possibly a cat wrote:It would be the facts that do it. Hell, if Manticore has the brilliant idea of calling in Beowulf to "independently investigate" it might be Beowulf's own investigation.

Beowulf first: Manticore does not have to worry, because Beowulf is one of the few governments in the Solarian League that does believe in the Malign menace: they know as fact that nano genetic assassins have been developed, they know the facts behind the Yawata Strike (to the extent that anyone does) and they have a centuries old relationship with Manticore. But that means others might not accept any findings by their investigation.

Second: Manticore will not expect that anyone on planet will be super rogue bio-engineers, just the normal rogue ones that can create designs for slaves. Plus they know the nano genetic assassin has be built from the target's DNA.

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:I am not going to talk about any legal aspect because I was told we should not do so and it is not germane to the problem Manticore can have with the propaganda charges around the Eridani Edit.

Who gave that Edict?

Unless it is commensurate with or it indirectly relates to. They can always be charged in a civil suit.

If you are talking about legal arguments, Bluesqueak said that in a recent post where I answered by saying you thought it was "funny". In response you said the correct word was "amusing".

If you mean the Eridani Edict, then the answer is the Solarian League that Manticore hopes to break into friendly pieces.

PS. I always wonder in the rare case that I am called funny, whether they mean "funny = haha" or "funny = peculiar"?

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:I am not going to talk about any legal aspect because I was told we should not do so and it is not germane to the problem Manticore can have with the propaganda charges around the Eridani Edit.

Who gave that Edict?

Unless it is commensurate with or it indirectly relates to. They can always be charged in a civil suit.

tlb wrote:If you are talking about legal arguments, Bluesqueak said that in a recent post where I answered by saying you thought it was "funny". In response you said the correct word was "amusing".

If you mean the Eridani Edict, then the answer is the Solarian League that Manticore hopes to break into friendly pieces.

PS. I always wonder in the rare case that I am called funny, whether they mean "funny = haha" or "funny = peculiar"?

That should have been a small 'e' as in edict.

I was being facetious. As in, who gave that edict that we shouldn't discuss the legal ramifications at hand. It would be like trying to discuss religion w/o mentioning the Almighty.