Remaining holes in SLN intel

How about:
Lets create a society on a newly settled planet where we do deliberate (and, of course important) genetic manipulations and experiments on human embryos on an idustrial scale with many goals in mind. Some of those are to see just how far we can change human bodies to specification either to make the "test subjects" more usefull in enviornments not normaly very good for humans or to find out which gene combinations will express in various other useful abilities or tendencies such as being good at accounting, having the body types and characteristics to be a good juggler (think Jerimy X) and Fool, or personal security clones of individuals with way above normal strength, reaction time, comliant intelligence in loyalty, etc. In the process they routinely discard (cull) any "post decanted subjects (full term infants from the commerical uterine replicate factories) that fail to meet the expected design criteria or otherwise don't work properly. They also produce tailored humans specificaly as slaves for use in everthing from sex to entertainment to heavy labor in highly toxic or high gravity situations. When shipments of "product" are in danger of being intercepted, the normal practice is to gas the product to force it into compartments near the hull of the ship so it may be dumped into space, clearing the evidence of this ususaly illegal activity from the ship. Now lets take a whole bunch of your citizens and non-citizen employees and implant them with a biological self-destruct timer such that if it isn't periodicaly reset they will die- wouldn't want them to decide to leave the control of their masters or be captured and perhaps give up any information. Set of a few dozen bombs (conventional and nuclear) as both cover of of your own activities and specificaly to enrage the rest of you population (especialy your planitary law enforcement) and the sympathy of some of the rest of the universe for the losses to your scapegoat planitary population with the murder of hundred of thousands (including specifically lots of children) to both cover your tracts and running disinformation campaigns to blame your adversaries.
Sound about right?
But they did it to improve the human race, wasn't that great? How can you criticize them or have anything good to say about those small minded individuals or nations that could not see the necessity for the research, the trials or particulary for the actions taken to prevent others from disrupting these nobel ventures to advance humanity, particulary the continued rise of the Star Lines in their quest to find the pinical of human development in themselves?

Shame on you.......you should all die and/or be our willing slaves! We deserve it! (A. Detweiler)

cthia wrote:There is such a thing as extradition laws subject to the rules of prearranged extradition treaties. The criminal act only has to be a criminal act in the host country of the perpetrator.

Is it possible that we amuse you so much, that you want to keep the law discussion going?

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:There is such a thing as extradition laws subject to the rules of prearranged extradition treaties. The criminal act only has to be a criminal act in the host country of the perpetrator.

Is it possible that we amuse you so much, that you want to keep the law discussion going?

Actually, it is simply in my nature to be thorough. It is probably some form of a compulsive disorder.

Although I can't deny that the entire discussion is amusing. It reminds me of a previous discussion regarding Thomas Theisman.

It also reminds me of the many legalities broached in GA response to SL attempts to prevent secessions thread.
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Maldorian wrote:The solarian propaganda will turn everything about the Alignment as an excuse of manticore for their actions. And that is the problem for manticore: No really hard facts to proof their story.

It's not there are not hard facts, it' that the hard facts tell a story that isn't favorable to Manticore or Haven.

"So can you explain how this individual managed to have possession of a nuclear weapon?"

"I gave it to him."

"Were you aware of his instability and urges toward mass murder?"

"Yes, but he was convenient."

"Can you explain how it was that he was able to defeat the safety systems and detonate it when and where he wanted?"

"I removed those safety systems and installed a manual detonator."

kzt wrote:

Maldorian wrote:The solarian propaganda will turn everything about the Alignment as an excuse of manticore for their actions. And that is the problem for manticore: No really hard facts to proof their story.

It's not there are not hard facts, it' that the hard facts tell a story that isn't favorable to Manticore or Haven.

"So can you explain how this individual managed to have possession of a nuclear weapon?"

"I gave it to him."

"Were you aware of his instability and urges toward mass murder?"

"Yes, but he was convenient."

"Can you explain how it was that he was able to defeat the safety systems and detonate it when and where he wanted?"

"I removed those safety systems and installed a manual detonator."

Small nit (very small)

Zilwicki and Cachat didn't give the nukes to the seccies. Anton and Victor asked them for explosives and the seccies went out and stole the nukes. IIRC, there is textev that Anton (or it might have been Victor) would have preferred something non-nuclear.

Maldorian wrote:The solarian propaganda will turn everything about the Alignment as an excuse of manticore for their actions. And that is the problem for manticore: No really hard facts to proof their story.

I suspect that the bigger problem for Manticore will be the overwhelming evidence arrayed against them. Manticore is getting framed. Also Anton and Victor picked right about the worst possible time to return to Mesa, right before the nukes started back up. I wouldn't be surprised if the sensor records show Manticore launching stealth drones to the sites of the nukes.

kzt wrote:

Maldorian wrote:The solarian propaganda will turn everything about the Alignment as an excuse of manticore for their actions. And that is the problem for manticore: No really hard facts to proof their story.

It's not there are not hard facts, it' that the hard facts tell a story that isn't favorable to Manticore or Haven.

"So can you explain how this individual managed to have possession of a nuclear weapon?"

"I gave it to him."

"Were you aware of his instability and urges toward mass murder?"

"Yes, but he was convenient."

"Can you explain how it was that he was able to defeat the safety systems and detonate it when and where he wanted?"

"I removed those safety systems and installed a manual detonator."

Well, I suppose they could have walked out and left the seccies with their bomb... locator unmolested. Or maybe they could have walked in on the safeties and warned them that a group of not too tightly wrapped seccies had a big bomb ready to go boom.

That is the difficulty with this kind of criticism. There is no comment here on how things could have been done differently without compromising the mission.

Don

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I believe you will find that Eridani refers to bombardment from space, a surrender not having yet been refused. Using atomic weapons in land warfare did not appear to be covered. Was Torch even a signatory of the Eridani agreement, to the extent there was an agreement rather than a decree by the League??

tlb wrote:I wish people would take more care of the quote assignments.

phillies wrote:No, they are not guilty. Strategic bombing became a normal part of warfare almost a century ago. Live with it.

ldwechsler wrote:And don't forget: they are innocent.

quite possibly a cat wrote:No, they are guilty. Under and sane legal system they would be guilty for taking part in the nuclear strike. Under Mesa's legal system they are almost certainly guilty of numerous crimes. Morally they are guilty. That blood is on their hands.

If they had even the tiniest shred of human decency in them they would have confessed to their crimes upon their return to friendly territory.

ldwechsler wrote:Let's grow up. If there is going to be a fuss made over nukes on planet it will be focused on Henke. The fuss already was made over Anton and Victor and went nowhere fast.

quite possibly a cat wrote:The only reason why anyone would so much as suspect Henke might not be guilty is because of Manticore's long track record of being the good guys. If Manticore is found complicit in even a single nuclear strike on Mesa then their reputation no longer protects them.

Strategic bombing of civilians is NOT okay in the universe with Manticore, because of the Eridani Edict. Manticore is going to be judged on this (assuming that propaganda charges are made) by the various leaders of the planets that comprise the Solarian League, where it can not be assumed that the Manties are the good guys (particularly because there is no general knowledge of Malign). We have no way of knowing that the Green Pines charges have gone nowhere with that group.

Corrected spelling where I hit an "S" on the keyboard instead of an "A".

Maldorian wrote:The solarian propaganda will turn everything about the Alignment as an excuse of manticore for their actions. And that is the problem for manticore: No really hard facts to proof their story.

kzt wrote:It's not there are not hard facts, it' that the hard facts tell a story that isn't favorable to Manticore or Haven.

"So can you explain how this individual managed to have possession of a nuclear weapon?"

"I gave it to him."

"Were you aware of his instability and urges toward mass murder?"

"Yes, but he was convenient."

"Can you explain how it was that he was able to defeat the safety systems and detonate it when and where he wanted?"

"I removed those safety systems and installed a manual detonator."

glott wrote:Small nit (very small)

Zilwicki and Cachat didn't give the nukes to the seccies. Anton and Victor asked them for explosives and the seccies went out and stole the nukes. IIRC, there is textev that Anton (or it might have been Victor) would have preferred something non-nuclear.

There was some back and forth: originally when Anton asked for explosives, he did prefer non-nuclear, but accepted what the seccies found. Then he disabled the locator mechanism and had one emplaced in an abandoned building to destroy any evidence of escape and the other went to David to put in a stadium as a diversion. Instead David exploded it at Green Pines. So they found them, he fixed them and they all used them.
The significance of all this is not the question of complicity (that is a side bar of interest in itself), but is the superficial veracity of the propaganda charges of an Eridani Edict violation against Torch, Maticore and Haven. The truthfulness of those charges will be decided by the Solarian League, which does not believe in the Malign conspiracy.

glott wrote:

kzt wrote:
Small nit (very small)

Zilwicki and Cachat didn't give the nukes to the seccies. Anton and Victor asked them for explosives and the seccies went out and stole the nukes. IIRC, there is textev that Anton (or it might have been Victor) would have preferred something non-nuclear.

Yes, but how he had it in his possession on the day he blew up a park full of kids was that he was handed the nuke by them and and told go somewhere with it and blow it up. He didn't steal it from the Mantcoran and Haven agents, he was issued it by them, with all the safety and tracking systems disabled.