Remaining holes in SLN intel

tlb wrote:I wish people would take more care of the quote assignments.

phillies wrote:No, they are not guilty. Strategic bombing became a normal part of warfare almost a century ago. Live with it.

ldwechsler wrote:And don't forget: they are innocent.

quite possibly a cat wrote:No, they are guilty. Under and sane legal system they would be guilty for taking part in the nuclear strike. Under Mesa's legal system they are almost certainly guilty of numerous crimes. Morally they are guilty. That blood is on their hands.

If they had even the tiniest shred of human decency in them they would have confessed to their crimes upon their return to friendly territory.

ldwechsler wrote:Let's grow up. If there is going to be a fuss made over nukes on planet it will be focused on Henke. The fuss already was made over Anton and Victor and went nowhere fast.

quite possibly a cat wrote:The only reason why anyone would so much as suspect Henke might not be guilty is because of Manticore's long track record of being the good guys. If Manticore is found complicit in even a single nuclear strike on Mesa then their reputation no longer protects them.

Strategic bombing of civilians is NOT okay in the universe with Manticore, because of the Eridani Edict. Manticore is going to be judged on this (assuming that propaganda charges are made) by the various leaders of the planets that comprise the Solarian League, where it can not be assumed that the Manties are the good guys (particulsrly because there is no general knowledge of Malign). We have no way of knowing that the Green Pines charges have gone nowhere with that group.

cthia wrote:As I mentioned before, it is okay if it is used to put down terrorist uprisings. The SLN used that clause themselves to spend a few kews to extinguish the "terrorist" fire ignited by Harahap on one of the planets I'm too lazy to look up.

Bluesqueak wrote:People keep quoting the getaway driver - at this point Zilwicki and Cachat (and Carl and Karen and the others) aren't getaway drivers. They're the gang who've just robbed the bank, are driving away - and watch the unstable member NOT get in the getaway car, but instead take the gun he was supposed to use in the robbery and rush over to the local park to start shooting.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

kzt wrote:It's reasonable to argue that those two were not directly responsible, its not reasonable to argue that the death of thousands does not require a fair and independent investigation of how this happened and determine who is responsible. So far Haven and Manticore have had no interest in doing this and have instead attempted to cover up the involvement of their citizen. Why might they refuse to investigate this sort of horrific terrorists act that directly involved their citizens?

If we're being fair, the Powers that Be probably just let their personal relationships get in the way and behaved horrifically unprofessionally and incompetently. But now that Henke has taken over Mesa, Manticore MUST investigate. But the day they start a serious debriefing of Victor and Anton, they'll learn about their antics. At which point they will have a choice. They can choose to cover things up, or they can admit the complicity of Anton and Victor.

A cover up might work, but I doubt it. Manticore has too strong a tradition of honesty and no experience in cover-ups. Henke trying to run a cover up against O'Hanrahan will probably just be an utter failure. At that point they might as well confess to violating the EEE. Best case scenario from there is a purge of Manticorian and Havenite leadership.

Admitting the guilt of Anton and Victor is nearly as bad unless they throw the two under the bus. The issue is if they execute Berry's father they shatter the relationship between Torch and Manticore/Haven. A best case scenario is the Malign getting Torch to join the RF. A worst case scenario is Berry doing something like "My Father sent me a message saying that Manticore was planning on nuking Mesa." and we're back to the failed cover up scenario, except the Ballroom will likely assist with the purges. Slaves died in those strikes too.

Or they could try some splitting the difference where they just refuse to answer questions about it. Which looks really bad, but might give just enough room for their people to convince themselves of their own innocence! If their lucky Beowulf won't hand over Manticore's entire tech base to the League.

tlb wrote:If the majority of the core worlds agree that Torch and Manticore have violated the Eridani Edict, then they will agree on the moral imperative of pursuing war and not be receptive to breaking away.

Well we know the Mandarins are going to be really stupid, which will probably lead to a break up even with the desire to strike back at Manticore. Which would be in some ways the worst possible outcome for Manticore and friends. The League is seriously hobbled by its government set up. If the star nations break away and then reform into a new nation or even just a military alliance they can shed their hobbles and become more effective and dangerous.

ldwechsler wrote:Second, what could they actually check? Nuclear bombs tend to reduce evidence to atoms. WE know that McBryde set off one bomb and the seccie set off the other.

They could just have fully debriefed Anton and Victor. Its not like they would have been able to lie about anything with Treecats. Then Manticore would have known everything that happened. Well at least up until the Treecats learn that the people who attacked on the Day of Sorrow only did so after Anton took part in the murder of a bunch of Mesan kittens. I'm not sure how a treecat would respond on learning that little detail.

Regardless the fact that Manticore didn't do a full debriefing is pathetic. Barring horrific incompetence, they chose not to ask so they could claim plausible deniability around it. Now horrific incompetence is still possible, but that's not exactly a good thing to be telling people.

Damien Harahap wrote:Besides, he'd like to compare notes with them about Green Pines, given his post terror attacks visit to Mendel. Unfortunately, they weren't available.

George J. Smith wrote:Spanner in the works

Defence posits:

Torch and its allies, including seccies on Mesa, are at war with Mesa, David knew that one of the Detweilers (Benjamin or Colin) lived in Green Pines and went after him, ergo all casualties were collateral damage.

Seeing as David is no longer around to question, who is to say it was not the case.

n7axw wrote:

George J. Smith wrote:Spanner in the works

Defence posits:

Torch and its allies, including seccies on Mesa, are at war with Mesa, David knew that one of the Detweilers (Benjamin or Colin) lived in Green Pines and went after him, ergo all casualties were collateral damage.

Seeing as David is no longer around to question, who is to say it was not the case.

I just read that section not long ago. It's pretty clear that even that much rationality had pretty much gone out the window. In fact his entire vocabulary at the end was reduced to two words f**k you... Besides, outside the onion, nobody knew that the Detweilers were even around.

Don

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tlb wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:If neither of us are lawyers, the next question is to ask which jurisdiction are we not lawyers in? Because current UK law requires that intent be proved as well as foresight. The case I quoted from, R. v Jogee, was the case that established that.

Your argument for the prosecution is that Zilwicki and Cachat might reasonably have known that David would run off and nuke a park. Complete with kids.

The argument for the defence would be that Zilwicki and Cachat did not encourage him to do that, did not plan to do that, and in fact asked Carl to tell him not to blow the nuke at all. They are in the position of a group of people off to burgle a house, who tell David to leave the stolen gun in the car - only to have him take it with him and shoot the householder.

In UK law, the provable lack of 'intent' of the others would mean they were not accessories to the murder. Even under the old common purpose cases, they'd have probably got off, because the defence could argue that they couldn't reasonably know David wouldn't do as he was told.

Now, my experience of criminal cases (no, I'm not a lawyer) is that it would be bloody difficult to convict Zilwicki and Cachat. Yes, you could argue that they knew he had a nuke, therefore might reasonably expect that he could use it. But as well as the question of whether they could reasonably know David would decide to disobey the rest of the group, David had definitely broken from the 'common purpose' of the group.

People keep quoting the getaway driver - at this point Zilwicki and Cachat (and Carl and Karen and the others) aren't getaway drivers. They're the gang who've just robbed the bank, are driving away - and watch the unstable member NOT get in the getaway car, but instead take the gun he was supposed to use in the robbery and rush over to the local park to start shooting.

cthia wrote:Would someone please tell me what David we are talking about here?

The name of the seccie that set off the Green Pines bomb is David.

Obviously this argument has gone as far as it can go. Let's assume that you are right in the UK and I am right in the US; then declare a ceasefire on the subject between us. Each of us will be allowed by the other to respond to third parties, but will try to indicate that we are talking specifically about the UK or the US.