Remaining holes in SLN intel

As I understand the Harrington plan to fight the Solarian League: it is not sufficient that Manticore and allies remove SL influence from the Verge, it is vital that many (perhaps a majority) of the core worlds also break from the League. This is required so that the League will not retain enough strength to rise up and strike back after the technological differences have been addressed.

tlb wrote:What Edict - the one that prohibits planetary bombardment from space? The official Mesan explanation (if I remember correctly) was that this was an Audubon Ballroom terror action as retribution for the naval attack on Torch, which received the help of seccies and the notorious Manticorean spy named Anton Zilwicki. They did not dispute that Torch was at war; instead portrayed this as an assault on women and children, rather than any military target. It was never claimed to be a bombardment from space, unlike the probable claims after the Manticore Navy arrived at Mesa.

kzt wrote:The one that prohibits the use of ALL WMDs against civilians.


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/0
" The Eridani Edict has some points in common with the rule of the "practicable breach." Essentially, the Eridani Edict says that no star nation may engage in the wholesale and wanton slaughter of civilian populations using any weapon of mass destruction. The actual language of the edict is clearly oriented towards nuclear or kinetic strikes, but it applies more to the intent and purpose of the weapon than to its actual characteristics, except inasmuch as those characteristics may define the… controlability of its area of effect."

Thank you very much for this information; I did not realize there was that much more. I have been pushing the idea that the presence of Zilwicki (known from the video) gives the Mesan propaganda a air of truthfulness that will cause Manticore diplomatic problems. First that Torch is more a haven for terrorists than a true nation and Manticore supports them and second that Manticore has now joined the terror campaign when it captured Mesa. We know this is not true, but the leaders of the core worlds that Manticore needs to win over will not.
With this additional information we see that the defense that Torch was at war will not be a defence against accusations of complicity. Nor will a defence of war protect Manticore from similar accusations. Because the core worlds do not know about Malign, they will be receptive to the accusations of Manticore and Torch violating the Eridani Edict following all the explosions starting with Green Pines.
If the majority of the core worlds agree that Torch and Manticore have violated the Eridani Edict, then they will agree on the moral imperative of pursuing war and not be receptive to breaking away.

PS. Here is some of what Wikipedia has to say on the legal subject of complicity:

Common law traditionally distinguished between a "principal" perpetrator who is primarily responsible for a crime, and an "accessory" perpetrator who is less responsible, but modern approaches abandon this distinction, and "a person is legally accountable for the conduct of another when he is an accomplice of the other person in the commission of the crime".

...

Liability of accomplices for unintended crimes

Questions arise as to the liability of accomplices for unintended crimes committed by a co-actor, such as whether a getaway driver outside of a building should be responsible for a shooting carried out by an accomplice inside. Most jurisdictions hold that accomplice liability applies not only to the contemplated crime but also any other criminal conduct that was reasonably foreseeable.

Conspiratorial liability

A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people to commit a crime or unlawful act or a lawful act by unlawful means. In the United States, any conspirator is responsible for crimes within the scope of the conspiracy and reasonably foreseeable crimes committed by coconspirators in furtherance of the conspiracy, under the Pinkerton liability rule. Notice the extent of potential liability. Under the Pinkerton rule, the conspirator could be held liable for crimes that they did not participate in or agree to or aid or abet or even know about. The basis of liability is negligence - the conspirator is responsible for any crime that were a foreseeable consequence of the original conspiratorial agreement.

WIth the exception of an accessory after the fact in most cases an accomplice is a co-conspirator with the actual perpetrator. For example, the person who agrees to drive the getaway car while his confederates actually rob the bank is principal in the second degree for purposes of accessorial liability and a co-conspirator for purposes of conspiratorial liability. However, many situations could arise where no conspiracy exists but the secondary party is still an accomplice. For example, the person in the crowd who encourages the batterer to "hit him again" is an aider and abettor but not a co-conspirator. As Dressler notes, the difference between the two forms of complicity is that with a conspiracy an agreement is sufficient and no assistance is necessary, whereas with accessorial liability no agreement is required but some form of assistance is necessary for liability.

PPS. There is some disagreement on whether Zilwicki was on half pay during the Green Pines incident. Though not conclusive, he is referenced as Captain before the incident and immediately after: both occur in the book At All Cost, first when meeting Honor on her flagship with Cachet and later when the Queen is questioning Cathy about Anton's whereabouts.

It's reasonable to argue that those two were not directly responsible, its not reasonable to argue that the death of thousands does not require a fair and independent investigation of how this happened and determine who is responsible. So far Haven and Manticore have had no interest in doing this and have instead attempted to cover up the involvement of their citizen. Why might they refuse to investigate this sort of horrific terrorists act that directly involved their citizens?

kzt wrote:It's reasonable to argue that those two were not directly responsible, its not reasonable to argue that the death of thousands does not require a fair and independent investigation of how this happened and determine who is responsible. So far Haven and Manticore have had no interest in doing this and have instead attempted to cover up the involvement of their citizen. Why might they refuse to investigate this sort of horrific terrorists act that directly involved their citizens?

Sort of nonsense. Why should Haven and MAnticore have ANY interest? First of all they are effectively at war with Mesa, which is an outlaw planet.

Second, what could they actually check? Nuclear bombs tend to reduce evidence to atoms. WE know that McBryde set off one bomb and the seccie set off the other.

Mesa and its corporation have killed enormous numbers of people and basically they are very good at covering up info. First of all would any investigators even be allowed? They would have to get into a real lot of records that probably would be prohibited.

It is also likely that a real lot of stuff could be simply made up.

The simple thing is that there are folk who are very quick to blame the good guys. Remember again WE KNOW that Anton and Victor did not set off the bombs. That's textev.

But any chance of a real investigation would have to wait until there was a reasonable government on Mesa. But...oh, yeah.

Perhaps there might be one.

kzt wrote:It's reasonable to argue that those two were not directly responsible, its not reasonable to argue that the death of thousands does not require a fair and independent investigation of how this happened and determine who is responsible. So far Haven and Manticore have had no interest in doing this and have instead attempted to cover up the involvement of their citizen. Why might they refuse to investigate this sort of horrific terrorists act that directly involved their citizens?

If we're being fair, the Powers that Be probably just let their personal relationships get in the way and behaved horrifically unprofessionally and incompetently. But now that Henke has taken over Mesa, Manticore MUST investigate. But the day they start a serious debriefing of Victor and Anton, they'll learn about their antics. At which point they will have a choice. They can choose to cover things up, or they can admit the complicity of Anton and Victor.

A cover up might work, but I doubt it. Manticore has too strong a tradition of honesty and no experience in cover-ups. Henke trying to run a cover up against O'Hanrahan will probably just be an utter failure. At that point they might as well confess to violating the EEE. Best case scenario from there is a purge of Manticorian and Havenite leadership.

Admitting the guilt of Anton and Victor is nearly as bad unless they throw the two under the bus. The issue is if they execute Berry's father they shatter the relationship between Torch and Manticore/Haven. A best case scenario is the Malign getting Torch to join the RF. A worst case scenario is Berry doing something like "My Father sent me a message saying that Manticore was planning on nuking Mesa." and we're back to the failed cover up scenario, except the Ballroom will likely assist with the purges. Slaves died in those strikes too.

Or they could try some splitting the difference where they just refuse to answer questions about it. Which looks really bad, but might give just enough room for their people to convince themselves of their own innocence! If their lucky Beowulf won't hand over Manticore's entire tech base to the League.

tlb wrote:If the majority of the core worlds agree that Torch and Manticore have violated the Eridani Edict, then they will agree on the moral imperative of pursuing war and not be receptive to breaking away.

Well we know the Mandarins are going to be really stupid, which will probably lead to a break up even with the desire to strike back at Manticore. Which would be in some ways the worst possible outcome for Manticore and friends. The League is seriously hobbled by its government set up. If the star nations break away and then reform into a new nation or even just a military alliance they can shed their hobbles and become more effective and dangerous.

ldwechsler wrote:Second, what could they actually check? Nuclear bombs tend to reduce evidence to atoms. WE know that McBryde set off one bomb and the seccie set off the other.

They could just have fully debriefed Anton and Victor. Its not like they would have been able to lie about anything with Treecats. Then Manticore would have known everything that happened. Well at least up until the Treecats learn that the people who attacked on the Day of Sorrow only did so after Anton took part in the murder of a bunch of Mesan kittens. I'm not sure how a treecat would respond on learning that little detail.

Regardless the fact that Manticore didn't do a full debriefing is pathetic. Barring horrific incompetence, they chose not to ask so they could claim plausible deniability around it. Now horrific incompetence is still possible, but that's not exactly a good thing to be telling people.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

kzt wrote:It's reasonable to argue that those two were not directly responsible, its not reasonable to argue that the death of thousands does not require a fair and independent investigation of how this happened and determine who is responsible. So far Haven and Manticore have had no interest in doing this and have instead attempted to cover up the involvement of their citizen. Why might they refuse to investigate this sort of horrific terrorists act that directly involved their citizens?

If we're being fair, the Powers that Be probably just let their personal relationships get in the way and behaved horrifically unprofessionally and incompetently. But now that Henke has taken over Mesa, Manticore MUST investigate. But the day they start a serious debriefing of Victor and Anton, they'll learn about their antics. At which point they will have a choice. They can choose to cover things up, or they can admit the complicity of Anton and Victor.

A cover up might work, but I doubt it. Manticore has too strong a tradition of honesty and no experience in cover-ups. Henke trying to run a cover up against O'Hanrahan will probably just be an utter failure. At that point they might as well confess to violating the EEE. Best case scenario from there is a purge of Manticorian and Havenite leadership.

Admitting the guilt of Anton and Victor is nearly as bad unless they throw the two under the bus. The issue is if they execute Berry's father they shatter the relationship between Torch and Manticore/Haven. A best case scenario is the Malign getting Torch to join the RF. A worst case scenario is Berry doing something like "My Father sent me a message saying that Manticore was planning on nuking Mesa." and we're back to the failed cover up scenario, except the Ballroom will likely assist with the purges. Slaves died in those strikes too.

Or they could try some splitting the difference where they just refuse to answer questions about it. Which looks really bad, but might give just enough room for their people to convince themselves of their own innocence! If their lucky Beowulf won't hand over Manticore's entire tech base to the League.

tlb wrote:If the majority of the core worlds agree that Torch and Manticore have violated the Eridani Edict, then they will agree on the moral imperative of pursuing war and not be receptive to breaking away.

Well we know the Mandarins are going to be really stupid, which will probably lead to a break up even with the desire to strike back at Manticore. Which would be in some ways the worst possible outcome for Manticore and friends. The League is seriously hobbled by its government set up. If the star nations break away and then reform into a new nation or even just a military alliance they can shed their hobbles and become more effective and dangerous.

ldwechsler wrote:Second, what could they actually check? Nuclear bombs tend to reduce evidence to atoms. WE know that McBryde set off one bomb and the seccie set off the other.

They could just have fully debriefed Anton and Victor. Its not like they would have been able to lie about anything with Treecats. Then Manticore would have known everything that happened. Well at least up until the Treecats learn that the people who attacked on the Day of Sorrow only did so after Anton took part in the murder of a bunch of Mesan kittens. I'm not sure how a treecat would respond on learning that little detail.

Regardless the fact that Manticore didn't do a full debriefing is pathetic. Barring horrific incompetence, they chose not to ask so they could claim plausible deniability around it. Now horrific incompetence is still possible, but that's not exactly a good thing to be telling people.

What makes us think there isn't an investigation already happening? In light of the very big picture and in considering what's at stake, Manticore may be treading lightly in order not to let on too much about what they know. They wouldn't want to spook the prey at the end of the bloodhounds' scent. That mistake is what triggered the events of Houdini in the first place.

cthia wrote:

kzt wrote:It's reasonable to argue that those two were not directly responsible, its not reasonable to argue that the death of thousands does not require a fair and independent investigation of how this happened and determine who is responsible. So far Haven and Manticore have had no interest in doing this and have instead attempted to cover up the involvement of their citizen. Why might they refuse to investigate this sort of horrific terrorists act that directly involved their citizens?

If we're being fair, the Powers that Be probably just let their personal relationships get in the way and behaved horrifically unprofessionally and incompetently. But now that Henke has taken over Mesa, Manticore MUST investigate. But the day they start a serious debriefing of Victor and Anton, they'll learn about their antics. At which point they will have a choice. They can choose to cover things up, or they can admit the complicity of Anton and Victor.

A cover up might work, but I doubt it. Manticore has too strong a tradition of honesty and no experience in cover-ups. Henke trying to run a cover up against O'Hanrahan will probably just be an utter failure. At that point they might as well confess to violating the EEE. Best case scenario from there is a purge of Manticorian and Havenite leadership.

Admitting the guilt of Anton and Victor is nearly as bad unless they throw the two under the bus. The issue is if they execute Berry's father they shatter the relationship between Torch and Manticore/Haven. A best case scenario is the Malign getting Torch to join the RF. A worst case scenario is Berry doing something like "My Father sent me a message saying that Manticore was planning on nuking Mesa." and we're back to the failed cover up scenario, except the Ballroom will likely assist with the purges. Slaves died in those strikes too.

Or they could try some splitting the difference where they just refuse to answer questions about it. Which looks really bad, but might give just enough room for their people to convince themselves of their own innocence! If their lucky Beowulf won't hand over Manticore's entire tech base to the League.

ldwechsler wrote:Second, what could they actually check? Nuclear bombs tend to reduce evidence to atoms. WE know that McBryde set off one bomb and the seccie set off the other.

They could just have fully debriefed Anton and Victor. Its not like they would have been able to lie about anything with Treecats. Then Manticore would have known everything that happened. Well at least up until the Treecats learn that the people who attacked on the Day of Sorrow only did so after Anton took part in the murder of a bunch of Mesan kittens. I'm not sure how a treecat would respond on learning that little detail.

Regardless the fact that Manticore didn't do a full debriefing is pathetic. Barring horrific incompetence, they chose not to ask so they could claim plausible deniability around it. Now horrific incompetence is still possible, but that's not exactly a good thing to be telling people.

What makes us think there isn't an investigation already happening? In light of the very big picture and in considering what's at stake, Manticore may be treading lightly in order not to let on too much about what they know. They wouldn't want to spook the prey at the end of the bloodhounds' scent. That mistake is what triggered the events of Houdini in the first place.[/quote]

You're assuming that anyone still cares. First of all, let's deal with the "real world" of the Honorverse. Anton and Victor are not guilty of anything. The infrastructure of Mesa is. That it protects data with nukes and has a seccie underclass has nothing at all to do with them.

Note also that it is years since the explosions. No one heard from the two men for quite a while and there were no major demands described. Chances are, those people who believe Mesa will not change their minds at all and no one in the Grand Alliance will believe anything come from Mesa. Take a look at modern politics in almost any country.People divide and believe what they basically hear from the sources they trust, whether for better or worse.

Shall we also note that there have been quite a few nuclear explosions on Mesa since then. There might be screams about Henke which will go nowhere on the Grand Alliance since leaders from Grayson and Haven were there as well. But a MAlign reporter with good credentials simply lied. That will create issues.

Let's grow up. If there is going to be a fuss made over nukes on planet it will be focused on Henke. The fuss already was made over Anton and Victor and went nowhere fast.

It is time to put on our big boy/girl pants and forget Anton and Victor and look where the real problem will be.
And don't forget: they are innocent. There is no doubt about that.

kzt wrote:It's reasonable to argue that those two were not directly responsible, its not reasonable to argue that the death of thousands does not require a fair and independent investigation of how this happened and determine who is responsible. So far Haven and Manticore have had no interest in doing this and have instead attempted to cover up the involvement of their citizen. Why might they refuse to investigate this sort of horrific terrorists act that directly involved their citizens?

ldwechsler wrote:Sort of nonsense. Why should Haven and MAnticore have ANY interest? First of all they are effectively at war with Mesa, which is an outlaw planet.

Second, what could they actually check? Nuclear bombs tend to reduce evidence to atoms. WE know that McBryde set off one bomb and the seccie set off the other.

Mesa and its corporation have killed enormous numbers of people and basically they are very good at covering up info. First of all would any investigators even be allowed? They would have to get into a real lot of records that probably would be prohibited.

It is also likely that a real lot of stuff could be simply made up.

The simple thing is that there are folk who are very quick to blame the good guys. Remember again WE KNOW that Anton and Victor did not set off the bombs. That's textev.

But any chance of a real investigation would have to wait until there was a reasonable government on Mesa. But...oh, yeah.

Perhaps there might be one.

The problem is not whether there will be an investigation, but instead what will the leadership of the core planets believe? Given that there is no knowledge in the outside world of the Malign and it plans except for announcements by Maticore and Haven (which can be taken as self serving), then what will they believe? At best that all the destruction was caused by the seccies; at worst that the seccies were aiding the Audubon Ballroom in reprisals for the attempted attack on Torch - with the probable help of Manticore and Haven.
The crucial point is that a state of war is NO excuse for a violation of the Eridani Edict.
If I am correct that success of the Harrington Plan requires a substantial number of the core worlds to break off from the League, then a general belief that Torch, Manticore and Haven had committed violations of the Edict will prevent those core worlds from taking a position favorable to Manticore and allies - even if they do break away from the League. Given the lack of knowledge (knowledge by the readers does not count) about any alternative cause for the explosions, why would they assume any other way?
PS. they did set off one bomb, but it did not kill anyone, so far as we know.

Given that people are getting extremely confused about 'accessory before the fact'. From UK law:

The rule in Chan Wing-Siu is often described as “joint enterprise liability”. However, the expression “joint enterprise” is not a legal term of art. As the Court of Appeal observed in R v A [2011] QB 841, para 9, it is used in practice in a variety of situations to include both principals and accessories. As applied to the rule in Chan Wing-Siu, it unfortunately occasions some public misunderstanding. It is understood (erroneously) by some to be a form of guilt by association or of guilt by simple presence without more. It is important to emphasise that guilt of crime by mere association has no proper part in the common law.

78. As we have explained, secondary liability does not require the existence of an agreement between D1 and D2. Where, however, it exists, such agreement is by its nature a form of encouragement and in most cases will also involve acts of assistance. The long established principle that where parties agree to carry out a criminal venture, each is liable for acts to which they have expressly or impliedly given their assent is an example of the intention to assist which is inherent in the making of the agreement. Similarly, where people come together without agreement, often spontaneously, to commit an offence together, the giving of intentional support by words or deeds, including by supportive presence, is sufficient to attract secondary liability on ordinary principles. We repeat that secondary liability includes cases of agreement between principal and secondary party, but it is not limited to them.

(Emphasis mine)

Zilwicki and Cachat did NOT give encouragement or assent to nuking Green Pines. That's textev. The 'crime' they intended to commit was to blow the nukes in previously planned locations that did not include highly populated areas. Nor did they have any means of stopping David when he went beyond the agreed, casualty minimising plan. Case law is clear; you can convict them only of the crimes they committed or encouraged, not the ones an associate then went off and committed on his own.

Evidence that they tried to dissuade also makes them not guilty of being an accessory to this particular act.

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:And oh yes, we are fussing about the 3 nukes that Anton and Victor were marginly involved in, one of which happened because David went off his rocker and bombed a kiddy park at Green Pines. But how many explosions went off while Houdini was being executed including that final flourish when Albrecht hit the button with Tourville and Henke in orbit? And, I almost forgot, how many kids died then?

Why do people dwell on the millions killed by the Nazis death camps when over 70 million got killed in the war? It's not they did this in a few hours, like the US did when they killed ~100,000 civilians in Operation Meetinghouse. Or that Hitler was especially good at mass murder, that honor goes to Stalin (~50 million) and Mao (~35 million).

Why then do people remember the camps?

Actually people overlook Japanese atrocities, which were worse than the Germans ever did by several degrees. Google Rape of Nanking, Unit 731, Batan Death March, Hell Ships. FYI the Japanese stopped looking for and prosecuting war criminals in the 1950's and hasn't prosecuted one since 1960. Germany is still going after war criminals to this day.

FYI Mao was worse than Stalin. Estimates run for Stalin at 1-2.2 million per year in power. Mao runs at 2.5-4 million per year in power. The worst as a percentage of population is Pol Pot of Cambodia who from 1975-1979 murdered an estimated 4.1 million people or just over 25% of the Cambodian population. FYI Cambodia is still finding mass graves throughout the countryside.

Bluesqueak wrote:Given that people are getting extremely confused about 'accessory before the fact'. From UK law:

The rule in Chan Wing-Siu is often described as “joint enterprise liability”. However, the expression “joint enterprise” is not a legal term of art. As the Court of Appeal observed in R v A [2011] QB 841, para 9, it is used in practice in a variety of situations to include both principals and accessories. As applied to the rule in Chan Wing-Siu, it unfortunately occasions some public misunderstanding. It is understood (erroneously) by some to be a form of guilt by association or of guilt by simple presence without more. It is important to emphasise that guilt of crime by mere association has no proper part in the common law.

78. As we have explained, secondary liability does not require the existence of an agreement between D1 and D2. Where, however, it exists, such agreement is by its nature a form of encouragement and in most cases will also involve acts of assistance. The long established principle that where parties agree to carry out a criminal venture, each is liable for acts to which they have expressly or impliedly given their assent is an example of the intention to assist which is inherent in the making of the agreement. Similarly, where people come together without agreement, often spontaneously, to commit an offence together, the giving of intentional support by words or deeds, including by supportive presence, is sufficient to attract secondary liability on ordinary principles. We repeat that secondary liability includes cases of agreement between principal and secondary party, but it is not limited to them.

(Emphasis mine)

Zilwicki and Cachat did NOT give encouragement or assent to nuking Green Pines. That's textev. The 'crime' they intended to commit was to blow the nukes in previously planned locations that did not include highly populated areas. Nor did they have any means of stopping David when he went beyond the agreed, casualty minimising plan. Case law is clear; you can convict them only of the crimes they committed or encouraged, not the ones an associate then went off and committed on his own.

Evidence that they tried to dissuade also makes them not guilty of being an accessory to this particular act.

You asked me if I was a lawyer (no); now I need to ask if you are a lawyer?

You are looking at the wrong part of the quote; what you say is correct when we are not talking about a criminal enterprise, then there is no guilt by association. But if the parties enter into a criminal enterprise (for example spying or destruction of property or exploding a nuke within city limits), then they implicitly approve of any actions that follow as part of that enterprise. So by giving a unstable member of an anti-government cell an untraceable nuke, they are giving implied assent to whatever follows. Here is the relevant part of the quote I found followed by yours.

Liability of accomplices for unintended crimes

Questions arise as to the liability of accomplices for unintended crimes committed by a co-actor, such as whether a getaway driver outside of a building should be responsible for a shooting carried out by an accomplice inside. Most jurisdictions hold that accomplice liability applies not only to the contemplated crime but also any other criminal conduct that was reasonably foreseeable.

The long established principle that where parties agree to carry out a criminal venture, each is liable for acts to which they have expressly or impliedly given their assent is an example of the intention to assist which is inherent in the making of the agreement. Similarly, where people come together without agreement, often spontaneously, to commit an offence together, the giving of intentional support by words or deeds, including by supportive presence, is sufficient to attract secondary liability on ordinary principles. We repeat that secondary liability includes cases of agreement between principal and secondary party, but it is not limited to them.

(Emphasis mine)