Speciation

ldwechsler wrote:Frankly, I think Eric pushed things a bit. It probably would have taken more than a few generations for a separate species to be created.

I think everyone is forgetting that the Mfecanes have already had many generations of isolation from the mainstream under extremely harsh conditions AND, according to Thandi, some grossly inept genetic modifications.

The idea that they are "a few generations away from being a separate species" is actually "a few MORE generations..."

Weird Harold wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Frankly, I think Eric pushed things a bit. It probably would have taken more than a few generations for a separate species to be created.

I think everyone is forgetting that the Mfecanes have already had many generations of isolation from the mainstream under extremely harsh conditions AND, according to Thandi, some grossly inept genetic modifications.

They've had many from a human historian's perspective. From an evolutionary biologist's, they've had a handful.

drothgery wrote:They've had many from a human historian's perspective. From an evolutionary biologist's, they've had a handful.

I don't think any "evolutionary biologists" have any experience with an alien ecology specifically designed by an author to accelerate speciation.

I don't think they have much experience with (fictional) genetic modifications designed by an author to accelerate speciation, either.

My point is that people are treating the statement "a couple of generations..." as meaning from a standing start, when the Mfecane worlds have had a thousand years or so of short, brutal lives and high infant mortality rates, with genetic tampering by "racist fanatics," leading them to the precipice of speciation in "a couple MORE generations..."

If I remember correctly Mfecane genetic modifications also ignored the limits that other groups, including Mesa, placed on any modifications that were made. When you're dealing with unnatural genetic modifications you can start overriding normal methods of natural selection and evolution.

I suppose it could be possible something about the Mfecane genetic modifications had screwed up the normal evolutionary processes and was rapidly pushing them away from compatibility with classical humans.

I have put some work into untangling the attributions: will everyone please pay more attention to the "quote boxes" that begin and end text.

ldwechsler wrote:Note that Thandi, a particularly variated individual, had no problems coupling with Victor.

Weird Harold wrote:Coupling isn't the problem, procreation is. Also, Mfecanes are not yet a separate species, they're just close; as in a couple of generations away.

tlb wrote:I have just been made aware of blood type incompatibility, which is one possible cause of sterility. So something like that could easily stop procreation, without affecting coupling.

ldwechsler wrote:Major changes usually take more than a couple of generations. Go back far enough and we're all pretty much related. I read somewhere that everyone with roots in Western Europe is likely descended from Charlemagne.

But a couple of generations in and you have a fairly small sample. It takes time to spread.

saber964 wrote:According to geneticist 1 in 8 people in China and central Asia are related to Genghis Khan

ldwechsler wrote:Keep in mind that related to is not the same as descended from...the common ancestor might be generations earlier.

The point is that it takes quite a few generations to really get a major genetic change to be common, at least for humans.

And not being able to breed requires real change. Lions and tigers breed and I think tigons can actually continued to breed...are not sterile. There are major genetic problems, however, but they are sometimes overcome.

I doubt the differences between those from Ndebele and other planets would be that great.

The source of the quote about blood type incompatibility used the specific example of a Chinese person with a European spouse; they could possibly have one child, but might be incapable of another because the mother's body rejects the fetal blood type difference.
Also, I expect that geneticists were talking about "descended from", not just "related to", since neither individual procreated sparingly. It's good to be the King, was closer to their motto.

Hands up who read "It's good to be the king" in Mel Brooks' Louis XVI voice?