Remaining holes in SLN intel

Bluesqueak wrote:Manticore didn't have a role in the Green Pines massacre. Neither did Haven.

feyhunde wrote:But Zilwicki and Cachat were on Mesa, both can be considered to represent Manticore and Haven, and both were involved with the events around the detonation of Green Pines.

It's easy enough to write propaganda saying the duo caused the massacre on purpose under orders for their government, even with us readers knowing exactly what happened.

George J. Smith wrote:Yes they were on Mesa, but not as representatives of their respective governments, do you honestly think their escapade was sanctioned by their governments, (governments of nations that were at war with each other), their governments didn't know where they were. Honor knew they were going somewhere together to investigate something, and she may havethought it was Mesa but she didn't know for sure as their destination was never mentioned.

Although Zilwicki is a private citizen; technically Cachet IS a representative of Haven, he is the head spy of an entire sector that includes Torch - and the bombing was blamed on retaliation for the attack of Torch. Zilwicki might well be considered an agent of Torch.
It is true that neither sanctioned this use of the nuke, but they are both accessories before the fact. If a robber shoots someone in a bank, the person sitting out in the getaway car is still an accessory to murder.

PS. Does anyone know if Zilwicki is still on half pay as an officer in the Navy? If so, then that is a further tie to Manticore, in addition being sent into the Torch situation as an emissary of the Queen (also the Queen's niece is in the Torch government).

tlb wrote:

feyhunde wrote:But Zilwicki and Cachat were on Mesa, both can be considered to represent Manticore and Haven, and both were involved with the events around the detonation of Green Pines.

It's easy enough to write propaganda saying the duo caused the massacre on purpose under orders for their government, even with us readers knowing exactly what happened.

George J. Smith wrote:Yes they were on Mesa, but not as representatives of their respective governments, do you honestly think their escapade was sanctioned by their governments, (governments of nations that were at war with each other), their governments didn't know where they were. Honor knew they were going somewhere together to investigate something, and she may havethought it was Mesa but she didn't know for sure as their destination was never mentioned.

Although Zilwicki is a private citizen; technically Cachet IS a representative of Haven, he is the head spy of an entire sector that includes Torch - and the bombing was blamed on retaliation for the attack of Torch. Zilwicki might well be considered an agent of Torch.
It is true that neither sanctioned this use of the nuke, but they are both accessories before the fact. If a robber shoots someone in a bank, the person sitting out in the getaway car is still an accessory to murder.

Torch had already declared war on Mesa, if I'm remembering the timeline correctly. Which makes Zilwicki an agent in enemy territory , working with the resistance - and who tried to stop the bombing. Remember, Torch is such a new state that practically everyone who isn't a former genetic slave (and many who are) holds dual citizenship. Zilwicki is the adoptive father of Torch's Queen; he's still loyal to Manticore, but he's trying to juggle that with being an agent for Torch.

And Victor Cachat is a law unto himself - certainly everyone on Haven could be placed on oath in front of an entire courtroom of treecats and truthfully say that they had no idea what the lunatic was up to, never ordered him to go to Mesa and certainly never mentioned nukes.

End result is that while propaganda might blame Manticore and Haven, reality is that Manticore and Haven had nothing to do with this.

Bluesqueak wrote:Manticore didn't have a role in the Green Pines massacre. Neither did Haven.

Both Victor, a Haven intelligence agent, and Anton, a member of Manticore's military were conspiring with David Pritchard the man who detonated the bomb in the park and Jack McBryde the man who detonated a nuke in the commercial district. Furthermore this mission was approved by Honor Harrington an active military officer. In fact she approved of it so much, she released a captured Havenite intelligence agent who had gained access to one of their super dreadnoughts. Haven clearly approved of it or they would have fired Victor for going AWOL.

Officially, they may maintain some fiction that denies the involvement of Manticore and Haven, but the truth is Haven and Manticore were part of the conspiracy that murdered so many innocent children.

If they had executed Victor and Anton shortly after debriefing them, or locked them up for life they might have a claim. For crying out loud they didn't even fire Victor! They were paying him for it!

Bluesqueak wrote:
And Victor Cachat is a law unto himself - certainly everyone on Haven could be placed on oath in front of an entire courtroom of treecats and truthfully say that they had no idea what the lunatic was up to, never ordered him to go to Mesa and certainly never mentioned nukes.

He was on their payroll! If he was doing stuff they didn't want they could have fired him at a bare minimum.

Back on topic: This whole event is actually an awfully big hole in SLN intelligence. Had they known about it, they could be rallying the League right now. Wanton mass murder of civilians being bad is the one thing the League agrees on. Instead of thinking up ways to punish Beowulf they could be getting Beowulf to hand over everything Manticore gave them, or placing traps in Manticore's new missiles.

Now the League government would still probably muck it up. They aren't show to be very smart, but at least they would have had a chance.

Bluesqueak wrote:And Victor Cachat is a law unto himself - certainly everyone on Haven could be placed on oath in front of an entire courtroom of treecats and truthfully say that they had no idea what the lunatic was up to, never ordered him to go to Mesa and certainly never mentioned nukes.

End result is that while propaganda might blame Manticore and Haven, reality is that Manticore and Haven had nothing to do with this.

As I understand the rule in international affairs: the agent of the state is assumed to act for the state. So lack of knowledge about Cachet actions is no excuse for Haven. Their only recourse is to repudiate his actions and possibly try him.
Look at Terekhov at Monica: operating without orders and setting things up so he could be repudiated. But without that repudiation, he acted with the Navy's blessing in effect.
It is true that Torch is at war, but Zilwicki is a Manticorean citizen - so to what extent would he have to be repudiated by Manticore?

quite possibly a cat wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:Manticore didn't have a role in the Green Pines massacre. Neither did Haven.

Both Victor, a Haven intelligence agent, and Anton, a member of Manticore's military were conspiring with David Pritchard the man who detonated the bomb in the park and Jack McBryde the man who detonated a nuke in the commercial district. Furthermore this mission was approved by Honor Harrington an active military officer. In fact she approved of it so much, she released a captured Havenite intelligence agent who had gained access to one of their super dreadnoughts. Haven clearly approved of it or they would have fired Victor for going AWOL.

Officially, they may maintain some fiction that denies the involvement of Manticore and Haven, but the truth is Haven and Manticore were part of the conspiracy that murdered so many innocent children.

If they had executed Victor and Anton shortly after debriefing them, or locked them up for life they might have a claim. For crying out loud they didn't even fire Victor! They were paying him for it!

Bluesqueak wrote:
And Victor Cachat is a law unto himself - certainly everyone on Haven could be placed on oath in front of an entire courtroom of treecats and truthfully say that they had no idea what the lunatic was up to, never ordered him to go to Mesa and certainly never mentioned nukes.

He was on their payroll! If he was doing stuff they didn't want they could have fired him at a bare minimum.

Back on topic: This whole event is actually an awfully big hole in SLN intelligence. Had they known about it, they could be rallying the League right now. Wanton mass murder of civilians being bad is the one thing the League agrees on. Instead of thinking up ways to punish Beowulf they could be getting Beowulf to hand over everything Manticore gave them, or placing traps in Manticore's new missiles.

Now the League government would still probably muck it up. They aren't show to be very smart, but at least they would have had a chance.

Can I just say that your habit of speaking from the point of view of Mesan propaganda without making it clear that this is what you're doing makes your posts extremely difficult to understand.

quite possibly a cat wrote:...Anton, a member of Manticore's military ...

Anton is a former member of the RMN. He is currently (and at the time of Green Pines) employed as a security advisor to the government of Torch.

Victor's status on Mesa is less clear cut. He is clearly deniable as acting in any official capacity; acting as a private citizen, in effect. Whether the Republic repudiates him or approves his actions retro-actively would firm up his status.

In any case, neither Mantcore nor Haven can be held liable for Victor or Anton's connection to Green Pines. If any government can be held responsible for their presence on Masa it would be Torch; a government which has officially declared war on Mesa which would make Green Pines an "act of war" by domestic rebels aided by covert Torch agents.

quite possibly a cat wrote:...Anton, a member of Manticore's military ...

Weird Harold wrote:Anton is a former member of the RMN. He is currently (and at the time of Green Pines) employed as a security advisor to the government of Torch.

Victor's status on Mesa is less clear cut. He is clearly deniable as acting in any official capacity; acting as a private citizen, in effect. Whether the Republic repudiates him or approves his actions retro-actively would firm up his status.

In any case, neither Mantcore nor Haven can be held liable for Victor or Anton's connection to Green Pines. If any government can be held responsible for their presence on Masa it would be Torch; a government which has officially declared war on Mesa which would make Green Pines an "act of war" by domestic rebels aided by covert Torch agents.

As of Crown of Slaves, Zilwicki was on half pay (so not a former officer at that time); therefore I am curious when he resigned.
If Cachet had ever been charged with complicity in Green Pines; then Haven would have had to repudiate him in order to absolve themselves of involvement, since he was acting in his capacity as a Haven spy - not as a private citizen. But you are certainly right that the normal response of any government to the actions of a spy are to deny any connection.
This discussion could impinge on the topic of SLN Intel, because the dispute for the responsibility of all the bombs on Mesa is going to add another component to how the Mandarins and the Solarian Navy decide to act. The question is not really whether the governments can be held liable for "terrorist" bombs, but whether the appearance of a connection used in a propaganda campaign will hurt Manticore and Haven's reputations in the core worlds.

tlb wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:...Anton, a member of Manticore's military ...

Weird Harold wrote:Anton is a former member of the RMN. He is currently (and at the time of Green Pines) employed as a security advisor to the government of Torch.

Victor's status on Mesa is less clear cut. He is clearly deniable as acting in any official capacity; acting as a private citizen, in effect. Whether the Republic repudiates him or approves his actions retro-actively would firm up his status.

In any case, neither Mantcore nor Haven can be held liable for Victor or Anton's connection to Green Pines. If any government can be held responsible for their presence on Masa it would be Torch; a government which has officially declared war on Mesa which would make Green Pines an "act of war" by domestic rebels aided by covert Torch agents.

As of Crown of Slaves, Zilwicki was on half pay (so not a former officer at that time); therefore I am curious when he resigned.
If Cachet had ever been charged with complicity in Green Pines; then Haven would have had to repudiate him in order to absolve themselves of involvement, since he was acting in his capacity as a Haven spy - not as a private citizen. But you are certainly right that the normal response of any government to the actions of a spy are to deny any connection.
This discussion could impinge on the topic of SLN Intel, because the dispute for the responsibility of all the bombs on Mesa is going to add another component to how the Mandarins and the Solarian Navy decide to act. The question is not really whether the governments can be held liable for "terrorist" bombs, but whether the appearance of a connection used in a propaganda campaign will hurt Manticore and Haven's reputations in the core worlds.

As of Cauldron of Ghosts, Honor was referring to him as 'Mr Zilwicki', so he had resigned by then. She called Victor by his rank in the same meeting, btw.

Before we attempt to paint both Haven and Manticore with the Terrorist Brush for the involvement with what led to Green Pines and screaming about how bad they are, can we kindly consider what exactly the Mandarins, various past and current Sr. officers in the SLN, OFS and the Alignment are in the process of doing?

Inciting rebellions (probably deserved) on Verge planets to, if not topple existing governments which are often in some level of cooperation with OFS, create chaos and isurrection as a pretext for OFS to swoop in and "rescue" the planet/system as a Protectorate and then strip it of assests after the deaths of up to millions of people --in each system.

Attach non-League systems which are trading partners of multiple League members in demonstration "lessons" of how dangerous it is to help or even trade with people who want to leave the League's corruption.

Kill millions and millions of people in undeclared wars, destroy the orbital facilites of systems and criple the economies just to make it easier for others to be better able to destroy the governments of said systems and bring some parity of military strength so everybody will have to kill more of the other sides to end wars.

Set up extortion schemes spanning thousands of star systems in the name of Order and Peace. Running such things as Operation Buccaneer to create incidents to justify taking over systems.

And don't forget, in addition to setting up a genetic slave industry for creating lab subjects and laborers for some of their schemes, our firends in the Alignment eventualy want to liquidate most "normal" humands to make room for their own superior lines--and think that by encouraging systems to use KEWs to hurry the job along is just more efficent along with getting all the other parties to multi-opponent wars to bleed their militaries down to the point where there isn't anybody left to be an impediment to the Alignment.

There is an awful lot of bad stuff going around.

Brigade XO wrote:Before we attempt to paint both Haven and Manticore with the Terrorist Brush for the involvement with what led to Green Pines and screaming about how bad they are, can we kindly consider what exactly the Mandarins, various past and current Sr. officers in the SLN, OFS and the Alignment are in the process of doing?

Inciting rebellions (probably deserved) on Verge planets to, if not topple existing governments which are often in some level of cooperation with OFS, create chaos and isurrection as a pretext for OFS to swoop in and "rescue" the planet/system as a Protectorate and then strip it of assests after the deaths of up to millions of people --in each system.

Attach non-League systems which are trading partners of multiple League members in demonstration "lessons" of how dangerous it is to help or even trade with people who want to leave the League's corruption.

Kill millions and millions of people in undeclared wars, destroy the orbital facilites of systems and criple the economies just to make it easier for others to be better able to destroy the governments of said systems and bring some parity of military strength so everybody will have to kill more of the other sides to end wars.

Set up extortion schemes spanning thousands of star systems in the name of Order and Peace. Running such things as Operation Buccaneer to create incidents to justify taking over systems.

And don't forget, in addition to setting up a genetic slave industry for creating lab subjects and laborers for some of their schemes, our firends in the Alignment eventualy want to liquidate most "normal" humands to make room for their own superior lines--and think that by encouraging systems to use KEWs to hurry the job along is just more efficent along with getting all the other parties to multi-opponent wars to bleed their militaries down to the point where there isn't anybody left to be an impediment to the Alignment.

There is an awful lot of bad stuff going around.

They are in a war with Mesa. That is already clear. So status makes no real difference.

And the fact that Anton and Victor know the Audubon people does not mean at all that they had something to do with the detonation of the bombs.

Essentially they knew of neither before the explosions went up. McBryde used one to cover his tracks and the other guy did the explosion on his own.

Those things would be important in a trial in the US right now. My uncle taught Lee Harvey Oswald in Junior High. Should be have been tried for something Oswald did. If Oswald went to a rifle range, would the person teaching him to shoot be charged...unless it could be shown he knew what Oswald would do?

However, none of that means anything since Mesa is a dictatorship and has none of our rules. Both agents would have been tortured and then executed. But no one on Haven or Manticore even knew where they were. And that includes their bosses and Zilwicki's family.

So those who would smear the planets and leadership are simply behaving like agents of Mesa.