Remaining holes in SLN intel

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:IC. It simply seems that FF would have better intel on Manty hardware. Seeing as they are the extension of the navy that has a higher chance of actually seeing Manty ships in action, perhaps against pirates while they're escorting their shipping in League space. Or, FF is the one who is most likely to properly digest what intel that did make it into their hands about Manty hardware. 'Tis my thinking anyways.

There is textev of FF intelligence officers taking notice of Manticoran tech. Most notably, Lt Askew(sp) and the trouble Byng's staff made for him over his analysis. He's likely to get a bit more notice if he isn't scapegoated for not providing the analysis more widely.

Castenea wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
There is textev of FF intelligence officers taking notice of Manticoran tech. Most notably, Lt Askew(sp) and the trouble Byng's staff made for him over his analysis. He's likely to get a bit more notice if he isn't scapegoated for not providing the analysis more widely.

I suspect that what happened to Lt. Askew is not unknown (or possibly uncommon) in the SLN, thus Intelligence at all levels tends to reflect the biases of the senior commanders of any sector at all times. FF is simply more open to new info, while Hyperion Base is nearly a hermetically sealed environment as far as outside information is concerned. I also suspect the openness of FF to new information that contradicts the commander's preconceived notions is neither great nor uniform. The Marines have created their own intel shop due to Navy ignoring their priorities and that the bad info they have been getting costs them people.

Theemile wrote:In short, neither Askew or that Commodore are available to send details of their analysis up the food chain. The Commodore's notes may already be floating around, but nothing new will be, nor will future Requests For Information from SLN brass be returned.

cthia wrote:A couple of things have been puzzling me regarding the SLNs intel.

1) Regarding Manticore's reputation. Over the centuries the Manties have been doing business with the League. They have an embassy there. Beginning with King Roger, the Manties had to establish a sort of reputation throughout the galaxy of being honest and forthright, with morals, scruples and values. This rep is partly what will enable them to capitalize off of the League's fracture lines. The systems lying along these fault lines know of the integrity of Manticore for certain. It is what allowed Harahap, the Malign by proxy, to manufacture the plan of setting the Manties up. The only reason the Malign plan was working is because these systems way the hell out yonder has heard of the Manticorans, their reliability and dependability and the fact that they are trustworthy. It is the disgusting fires that Harahap set to burn this reputation is what Lady Henke was fighting. She was the fire break. Yet the League doesn't seem to support this reputation of theirs. That's odd. No one else in the entire galaxy certainly ever accused the Queen, and by extension Manticore, of being dishonest. Or morally bankrupt.

2) This really gets me. Harrington's reputation preceded her everywhere she went. It always stood her in good steed. Although the IAN detested the Manties, Harrington herself was respected because of her reputation, both morally and militarily.

Her rep even followed her way the hell out to Hades where it must have been hard to get news way the hell out in the Styx, yet the SLN either doubted her abilities or were completely oblivious to it. They thought her accomplishments were padded. Yet, no one else in the galaxy did.

Eagleeye wrote:

cthia wrote:A couple of things have been puzzling me regarding the SLNs intel.

1) Regarding Manticore's reputation. Over the centuries the Manties have been doing business with the League. They have an embassy there. Beginning with King Roger, the Manties had to establish a sort of reputation throughout the galaxy of being honest and forthright, with morals, scruples and values. This rep is partly what will enable them to capitalize off of the League's fracture lines. The systems lying along these fault lines know of the integrity of Manticore for certain. It is what allowed Harahap, the Malign by proxy, to manufacture the plan of setting the Manties up. The only reason the Malign plan was working is because these systems way the hell out yonder has heard of the Manticorans, their reliability and dependability and the fact that they are trustworthy. It is the disgusting fires that Harahap set to burn this reputation is what Lady Henke was fighting. She was the fire break. Yet the League doesn't seem to support this reputation of theirs. That's odd. No one else in the entire galaxy certainly ever accused the Queen, and by extension Manticore, of being dishonest. Or morally bankrupt.

2) This really gets me. Harrington's reputation preceded her everywhere she went. It always stood her in good steed. Although the IAN detested the Manties, Harrington herself was respected because of her reputation, both morally and militarily.

Her rep even followed her way the hell out to Hades where it must have been hard to get news way the hell out in the Styx, yet the SLN either doubted her abilities or were completely oblivious to it. They thought her accomplishments were padded. Yet, no one else in the galaxy did.

Only reason I see for these failures is - in the eyes of the "Mandarines", the Galaxy outside the SL simply do not exist in a political sense. Not in a way what would matter for them, because they know on a ... call it genetically foundation, that they are THE BIGGEST, GREATEST, MEANEST BULLY in everything and everywhere, period. And it was true, for most of the time, too. Until the advent of the laserhead-missiles started to change the game ...

So, anything what happened outside the League-coreworlds was only of minor interest - something like a half forgotten fairytail which doesn't have any true consequences for them. And noone wanted to change that, because that same mindset was the ideal environment for the empire-building of Manpower, TIY etc - not to forget Frontier Fleet and Frontier Security. In fact, I'm sure they supported that mindset in any way they could.

Manticore can be literally the knight in shining armor concerning its reputation in the verge - for the deciders in the League it doesn't matter, because WE ARE THE LEAGUE, and if Manticore gets upset, WE SQUASH THEM LIKE THE FLY THEY ARE. That's the Law of Nature, as far as they're concerned.

Eagleeye wrote:

cthia wrote:A couple of things have been puzzling me regarding the SLNs intel.


Only reason I see for these failures is - in the eyes of the "Mandarines", the Galaxy outside the SL simply do not exist in a political sense. Not in a way what would matter for them, because they know on a ... call it genetically foundation, that they are THE BIGGEST, GREATEST, MEANEST BULLY in everything and everywhere, period. And it was true, for most of the time, too. Until the advent of the laserhead-missiles started to change the game ...

So, anything what happened outside the League-coreworlds was only of minor interest - something like a half forgotten fairytail which doesn't have any true consequences for them. And noone wanted to change that, because that same mindset was the ideal environment for the empire-building of Manpower, TIY etc - not to forget Frontier Fleet and Frontier Security. In fact, I'm sure they supported that mindset in any way they could.

Manticore can be literally the knight in shining armor concerning its reputation in the verge - for the deciders in the League it doesn't matter, because WE ARE THE LEAGUE, and if Manticore gets upset, WE SQUASH THEM LIKE THE FLY THEY ARE. That's the Law of Nature, as far as they're concerned.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Eagleeye. The League's institutional arrogance outweighs their practicality and this arrogance is part and parcel to their business as usual attitude. I don't misunderstand their "We-don't-giva-damn" 'tude. But it doesn't explain their blindness/unacceptance that the Manties are indeed an honest people. I realize that they don't, won't, give a damn that they stomp on this honesty. But they shouldn't be able to shovel it under falsity. The SLN and the Mandarines themselves, seem to genuinely disbelieve the Manties' honesty. Again, I can understand their not giving aratsass about their honesty. But claiming to be unaware of it would get the book thrown at them in a court of law.

Eagleeye wrote:

cthia wrote:A couple of things have been puzzling me regarding the SLNs intel.


Only reason I see for these failures is - in the eyes of the "Mandarines", the Galaxy outside the SL simply do not exist in a political sense. Not in a way what would matter for them, because they know on a ... call it genetically foundation, that they are THE BIGGEST, GREATEST, MEANEST BULLY in everything and everywhere, period. And it was true, for most of the time, too. Until the advent of the laserhead-missiles started to change the game ...

So, anything what happened outside the League-coreworlds was only of minor interest - something like a half forgotten fairytail which doesn't have any true consequences for them. And noone wanted to change that, because that same mindset was the ideal environment for the empire-building of Manpower, TIY etc - not to forget Frontier Fleet and Frontier Security. In fact, I'm sure they supported that mindset in any way they could.

Manticore can be literally the knight in shining armor concerning its reputation in the verge - for the deciders in the League it doesn't matter, because WE ARE THE LEAGUE, and if Manticore gets upset, WE SQUASH THEM LIKE THE FLY THEY ARE. That's the Law of Nature, as far as they're concerned.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Eagleeye. The League's institutional arrogance outweighs their practicality and this arrogance is part and parcel to their business as usual attitude. I don't misunderstand their "We-don't-giva-damn" 'tude. But it doesn't explain their blindness/unacceptance that the Manties are indeed an honest people. I realize that they don't, won't, give a damn that they stomp on this honesty. But they shouldn't be able to shovel it under falsity. The SLN and the Mandarines themselves, seem to genuinely disbelieve the Manties' honesty. Again, I can understand their not giving aratsass about their honesty. But claiming to be unaware of it would get the book thrown at them in a court of law.

cthia wrote:I agree with you wholeheartedly, Eagleeye. The League's institutional arrogance outweighs their practicality and this arrogance is part and parcel to their business as usual attitude. I don't misunderstand their "We-don't-giva-damn" 'tude. But it doesn't explain their blindness/unacceptance that the Manties are indeed an honest people. I realize that they don't, won't, give a damn that they stomp on this honesty. But they shouldn't be able to shovel it under falsity. The SLN and the Mandarines themselves, seem to genuinely disbelieve the Manties' honesty. Again, I can understand their not giving aratsass about their honesty. But claiming to be unaware of it would get the book thrown at them in a court of law.

Bluesqueak wrote:

cthia wrote:I agree with you wholeheartedly, Eagleeye. The League's institutional arrogance outweighs their practicality and this arrogance is part and parcel to their business as usual attitude. I don't misunderstand their "We-don't-giva-damn" 'tude. But it doesn't explain their blindness/unacceptance that the Manties are indeed an honest people. I realize that they don't, won't, give a damn that they stomp on this honesty. But they shouldn't be able to shovel it under falsity. The SLN and the Mandarines themselves, seem to genuinely disbelieve the Manties' honesty. Again, I can understand their not giving aratsass about their honesty. But claiming to be unaware of it would get the book thrown at them in a court of law.

I think that the reason the Mandarins don't believe Manticore is honest is because the bureaucracy is so corrupt, so dishonest themselves that they are no longer able to recognise genuine honesty. "The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."

If Manticore has a reputation for honesty, that's because it's Manticore's particular angle on the game. It's not because they are honest. It's because they've found it a useful tactic. So the notes they send don't mean exactly what they say - one has to read the subtext. The notes are purely for the official record, and what the Manties really want or what really happened is something else again.

The idea that someone might send a diplomatic note that means exactly what it says, or that they might send records that are true and accurate is simply so far outside the Mandarins experience that they simply can't comprehend it. Nobody in the League bureaucracy would ever do that: any note, any record has been carefully tailored to spin the picture that the person sending it wants spun. Anyone who does tell the truth finds that a sort of reverse evolution weeds them ruthlessly out of the League hierarchy; so that truth telling becomes something only the foolish would do.

And, besides, the Mandarins think, the 'truth' of the matter is essentially unimportant; what matters is the desired result. So if the Manties have sent true and accurate records, it's only because the truth served their purposes - this time. More likely they've tweaked them a bit.

Add this all together, and you get a situation where the Manties can't really be honest, because a) nobody successful is honest and the Manties are successful and b) everyone is gaming the system so the Manties supposed honesty is just their angle on the game.