Remaining holes in SLN intel

Keith_w wrote:

cthia wrote:I was watching one of the Star Trek Discovery episodes and one of the Discovery ships retrieved the memory core of a Klingon vessel. IINM, Honorverse ships also have something similar. I recall notions about wiping or dumping the ships computer memory, though I can't recall if there is a centralized core. In the aftermath of Raging Justice, the SLN ship's logs were sent back to the Mandarins intact, I think. Can't the Mandarins know whether their own computers have been compromised? Yet they doubted the veracity of their own logs and questioned whether the computer's memory had been altered. I may be misremembering it, but certainly the same option was on the table. There were many ships captured. Surely the memory of one ship could have been sent back untouched and uncompromised, in a way that there would have been no doubt in the absence of tampering.

Unfortunately the entire management structure of the SL is filled with political bureaucrats. There is no desire to beleive that they are receiving true information. It is much better for them to beleive that the logs have been adjusted to present a picture beneficial to the RMN than to the SLN, to enhance the RMN's reputation. Also, to allow that the RMN was able to take out a Battlefleet fleet so easily would raise questions about their own competance in allowing Battlefleet to become so out of date.

It doesn't take the whole bureaucracy, only the people at the top. After all, if someone keeps pointing out the truth there are a real lot of things that can be done to shut them up. A simple transfer to a less desirable assignment is easiest.

Keep in mind that the bureaucracy of the League is different from a nation's. The key people represent Foreign Affairs, Trade, Treasury, and "Education..." read Propaganda. Plus the navy.

No mention of health and human services, transportation, welfare, etc.

Effectively, the bureaucracy essentially handles interplanetary things, not intraplanetary.

It's needs are fairly simple. Except for the navy, it probably doesn't directly do all that much. The Treasury does collect fees but those come from agents on the different planets. Trade is mostly analysis. Foreign Relations really is mostly political leadership since they don't deal much with outsiders unless they are conquering them.

They are really unprepared for what is happening.

PalmerSperry wrote:

pnakasone wrote:You forgot one.
FRMP 501: Always have a someone else in the chain of command you can pin blame on.

I'm guessing that course doesn't cover remembering that you might be that person for someone else?

Course Revision
FRMP 501: Always have someone else in the chain of command you can pin blame on before they can pin it on you.

PalmerSperry wrote:

pnakasone wrote:You forgot one.
FRMP 501: Always have a someone else in the chain of command you can pin blame on.

I'm guessing that course doesn't cover remembering that you might be that person for someone else?

pnakasone wrote: Course Revision
FRMP 501: Always have someone else in the chain of command you can pin blame on before they can pin it on you.

Traditional course FRMP 501: Scapegoat

Keith_w wrote:

cthia wrote:I was watching one of the Star Trek Discovery episodes and one of the Discovery ships retrieved the memory core of a Klingon vessel. IINM, Honorverse ships also have something similar. I recall notions about wiping or dumping the ships computer memory, though I can't recall if there is a centralized core. In the aftermath of Raging Justice, the SLN ship's logs were sent back to the Mandarins intact, I think. Can't the Mandarins know whether their own computers have been compromised? Yet they doubted the veracity of their own logs and questioned whether the computer's memory had been altered. I may be misremembering it, but certainly the same option was on the table. There were many ships captured. Surely the memory of one ship could have been sent back untouched and uncompromised, in a way that there would have been no doubt in the absence of tampering.

Unfortunately the entire management structure of the SL is filled with political bureaucrats. There is no desire to beleive that they are receiving true information. It is much better for them to beleive that the logs have been adjusted to present a picture beneficial to the RMN than to the SLN, to enhance the RMN's reputation. Also, to allow that the RMN was able to take out a Battlefleet fleet so easily would raise questions about their own competance in allowing Battlefleet to become so out of date.

ldwechsler wrote:It doesn't take the whole bureaucracy, only the people at the top. After all, if someone keeps pointing out the truth there are a real lot of things that can be done to shut them up. A simple transfer to a less desirable assignment is easiest.

Keep in mind that the bureaucracy of the League is different from a nation's. The key people represent Foreign Affairs, Trade, Treasury, and "Education..." read Propaganda. Plus the navy.

No mention of health and human services, transportation, welfare, etc.

Effectively, the bureaucracy essentially handles interplanetary things, not intraplanetary.

It's needs are fairly simple. Except for the navy, it probably doesn't directly do all that much. The Treasury does collect fees but those come from agents on the different planets. Trade is mostly analysis. Foreign Relations really is mostly political leadership since they don't deal much with outsiders unless they are conquering them.

They are really unprepared for what is happening.

Considering how Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet hated each other, chances are they didn't share intel like most three letter agencies I know of, because of traditionally deep chasms called resentment, animosity, bailiwick and tension.

Frontier Fleet should have had better intel.

pnakasone wrote:

PalmerSperry wrote:I'm guessing that course doesn't cover remembering that you might be that person for someone else?

Course Revision
FRMP 501: Always have someone else in the chain of command you can pin blame on before they can pin it on you.

The first rule of poker: if you don't know who the patsy is, it's you. But this is more like a Ponzi scheme. If you cut and run first (successfully) you can get free. Then it all comes tumbling down. The teasers suggest not even Beowulf will be able to cut completely successfully.

cthia wrote:
Considering how Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet hated each other, chances are they didn't share intel like most three letter agencies I know of, because of traditionally deep chasms called resentment, animosity, bailiwick and tension.

Frontier Fleet should have had better intel.

It was already stated that the Marines had their own intel department, as the Navy's intel had cost them painfully in lives over the years. Not to say it was consistently negligent, but the Navy's "focus" wasn't on the data the Marines required to plan their ops properly.

Unfortunately, the only part of the navy which actively deployed (until recently) was Frontier Fleet, so the Marines specifically had issues with FF planning and intel, not BF, indicating that FF's was lacking as well.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:
Considering how Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet hated each other, chances are they didn't share intel like most three letter agencies I know of, because of traditionally deep chasms called resentment, animosity, bailiwick and tension.

Frontier Fleet should have had better intel.

It was already stated that the Marines had their own intel department, as the Navy's intel had cost them painfully in lives over the years. Not to say it was consistently negligent, but the Navy's "focus" wasn't on the data the Marines required to plan their ops properly.

Unfortunately, the only part of the navy which actively deployed (until recently) was Frontier Fleet, so the Marines specifically had issues with FF planning and intel, not BF, indicating that FF's was lacking as well.

IC. It simply seems that FF would have better intel on Manty hardware. Seeing as they are the extension of the navy that has a higher chance of actually seeing Manty ships in action, perhaps against pirates while they're escorting their shipping in League space. Or, FF is the one who is most likely to properly digest what intel that did make it into their hands about Manty hardware. 'Tis my thinking anyways.

cthia wrote:IC. It simply seems that FF would have better intel on Manty hardware. Seeing as they are the extension of the navy that has a higher chance of actually seeing Manty ships in action, perhaps against pirates while they're escorting their shipping in League space. Or, FF is the one who is most likely to properly digest what intel that did make it into their hands about Manty hardware. 'Tis my thinking anyways.

There is textev of FF intelligence officers taking notice of Manticoran tech. Most notably, Lt Askew(sp) and the trouble Byng's staff made for him over his analysis. He's likely to get a bit more notice if he isn't scapegoated for not providing the analysis more widely.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:IC. It simply seems that FF would have better intel on Manty hardware. Seeing as they are the extension of the navy that has a higher chance of actually seeing Manty ships in action, perhaps against pirates while they're escorting their shipping in League space. Or, FF is the one who is most likely to properly digest what intel that did make it into their hands about Manty hardware. 'Tis my thinking anyways.

There is textev of FF intelligence officers taking notice of Manticoran tech. Most notably, Lt Askew(sp) and the trouble Byng's staff made for him over his analysis. He's likely to get a bit more notice if he isn't scapegoated for not providing the analysis more widely.

Some people have noticed. But the government refuses to accept facts and does not broadcast the whole thing. We constantly see Sollies unaware of almost everything going on in the League.

Communication seems really bad.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:IC. It simply seems that FF would have better intel on Manty hardware. Seeing as they are the extension of the navy that has a higher chance of actually seeing Manty ships in action, perhaps against pirates while they're escorting their shipping in League space. Or, FF is the one who is most likely to properly digest what intel that did make it into their hands about Manty hardware. 'Tis my thinking anyways.

There is textev of FF intelligence officers taking notice of Manticoran tech. Most notably, Lt Askew(sp) and the trouble Byng's staff made for him over his analysis. He's likely to get a bit more notice if he isn't scapegoated for not providing the analysis more widely.

With the exception of Operation Buccaneer, it is simply that I imagine there is more of a probability of the RMN running into FF than Battle Fleet where the RMN is operating near the League's periphery.