Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 40 guests

Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:16 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

This and this reminds me of why I find that the MAlign are sociopathic psychopaths.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by Peregrinator   » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:18 am

Peregrinator
Commander

Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:50 pm

ldwechsler wrote:The ends justify the means. And, of course, in some ways that is true but not here. But they are not psychos. Notice that Marinescu, who is nuts, is despised by the bosses. The leaders believe in their vision.

I'm not sure who is worse, Marinescu, who is clearly a psychopath, or the "bosses" that will use her to achieve their ends and then cast her aside. Why is one superior to the other?
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:22 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Peregrinator wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:The ends justify the means. And, of course, in some ways that is true but not here. But they are not psychos. Notice that Marinescu, who is nuts, is despised by the bosses. The leaders believe in their vision.

I'm not sure who is worse, Marinescu, who is clearly a psychopath, or the "bosses" that will use her to achieve their ends and then cast her aside. Why is one superior to the other?

Exactly my point! From Detweiler to Deathwielder, shit rolls downhill. They are all stone-cold psychopathic! Talk about a case of the pots calling the kettles black!

Peregrinator, take a bow.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:33 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

Peregrinator wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:The ends justify the means. And, of course, in some ways that is true but not here. But they are not psychos. Notice that Marinescu, who is nuts, is despised by the bosses. The leaders believe in their vision.

I'm not sure who is worse, Marinescu, who is clearly a psychopath, or the "bosses" that will use her to achieve their ends and then cast her aside. Why is one superior to the other?


Forget the superior. Marinescu likes killing, enjoys it. Pushes ways to kill more. The Dets, etc., do it because they feel they have to.

Houdini was supposed to have been done over a long period of time. The shortened time span led to at least some of the killing. The leadership was not happy over that.

Yes, they put the plan first. Note that similar kinds of things have been done by a real lot of countries and still are taking place.

The Brits allowed a major city to be bombed in order to protect the fact they had broken the Enigma code. Thousands of their own people were killed.

Truman dropped the A-bombs to save American lives and killed an enormous number of people. However, that number was less than the number killed in the great Tokyo firebombing raid.

Right now, protesters are working to prevent "golden rice", enriched with Vitamin A to go to poor countries where kids go blind from lack of the vitamin and consider themselves noble.

It's all in how you look at it.

Marinescu was really nasty and not sorry at all for what she was doing. The leadership was willing to do it but not at all happy.
That does make a difference.
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by Vince   » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:26 am

Vince
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1574
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:43 pm

ldwechsler wrote:The ends justify the means. And, of course, in some ways that is true but not here. But they are not psychos. Notice that Marinescu, who is nuts, is despised by the bosses. The leaders believe in their vision.
Peregrinator wrote:I'm not sure who is worse, Marinescu, who is clearly a psychopath, or the "bosses" that will use her to achieve their ends and then cast her aside. Why is one superior to the other?
ldwechsler wrote:Forget the superior. Marinescu likes killing, enjoys it. Pushes ways to kill more. The Dets, etc., do it because they feel they have to.

Houdini was supposed to have been done over a long period of time. The shortened time span led to at least some of the killing. The leadership was not happy over that.

Yes, they put the plan first. Note that similar kinds of things have been done by a real lot of countries and still are taking place.

The Brits allowed a major city to be bombed in order to protect the fact they had broken the Enigma code. Thousands of their own people were killed.

Truman dropped the A-bombs to save American lives and killed an enormous number of people. However, that number was less than the number killed in the great Tokyo firebombing raid.

Right now, protesters are working to prevent "golden rice", enriched with Vitamin A to go to poor countries where kids go blind from lack of the vitamin and consider themselves noble.

It's all in how you look at it.

Marinescu was really nasty and not sorry at all for what she was doing. The leadership was willing to do it but not at all happy.
That does make a difference.

The idea that the British allowed Coventry to be bombed to protect the secret that they had cracked Enigma is one of the more enduring myths of the Battle of Britain in World War II.

Read Fighter: The True Story of the Battle of Britain by Len Deighton for what really happened that allowed the German Luftwaffe to bomb Coventry (spoiler: primarily misunderstanding what intelligence they had plus some other factors).
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by tlb   » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:29 am

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4441
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

ldwechsler wrote:The ends justify the means. And, of course, in some ways that is true but not here. But they are not psychos. Notice that Marinescu, who is nuts, is despised by the bosses. The leaders believe in their vision.

Peregrinator wrote:I'm not sure who is worse, Marinescu, who is clearly a psychopath, or the "bosses" that will use her to achieve their ends and then cast her aside. Why is one superior to the other?

cthia wrote:Exactly my point! From Detweiler to Deathwielder, shit rolls downhill. They are all stone-cold psychopathic! Talk about a case of the pots calling the kettles black!

It is certainly true that both Marinescu and her bosses are equally culpable, but that does not imply they are all equally psychotic.
It seems to me that the leaders of the Onion, faithful to advancing their great Vision against the forces of Beowulf, are acting as a guerilla army in a quasi-religious war. The explosions on Mesa are both a terrorist attack aimed at implicating Manticore and a means of operational security to protect their biggest remaining secret: Darius.
A comparison with the actions of Warnecke can be made; but again it must be cautioned, just because he was crazy, that does not mean the leadership or members of the Onion are generally crazy also.
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:00 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

tlb wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:The ends justify the means. And, of course, in some ways that is true but not here. But they are not psychos. Notice that Marinescu, who is nuts, is despised by the bosses. The leaders believe in their vision.

Peregrinator wrote:I'm not sure who is worse, Marinescu, who is clearly a psychopath, or the "bosses" that will use her to achieve their ends and then cast her aside. Why is one superior to the other?

cthia wrote:Exactly my point! From Detweiler to Deathwielder, shit rolls downhill. They are all stone-cold psychopathic! Talk about a case of the pots calling the kettles black!

It is certainly true that both Marinescu and her bosses are equally culpable, but that does not imply they are all equally psychotic.

Let us recall that the British changed many cultures, sometimes for the better, as they created an empire and allowed many of their number to get rich.

And the US had little trouble justifying the Indian wars.


It seems to me that the leaders of the Onion, faithful to advancing their great Vision against the forces of Beowulf, are acting as a guerilla army in a quasi-religious war. The explosions on Mesa are both a terrorist attack aimed at implicating Manticore and a means of operational security to protect their biggest remaining secret: Darius.
A comparison with the actions of Warnecke can be made; but again it must be cautioned, just because he was crazy, that does not mean the leadership or members of the Onion are generally crazy also.
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by tlb   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:20 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4441
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

ldwechsler wrote:The ends justify the means. And, of course, in some ways that is true but not here. But they are not psychos. Notice that Marinescu, who is nuts, is despised by the bosses. The leaders believe in their vision.

Peregrinator wrote:I'm not sure who is worse, Marinescu, who is clearly a psychopath, or the "bosses" that will use her to achieve their ends and then cast her aside. Why is one superior to the other?

cthia wrote:Exactly my point! From Detweiler to Deathwielder, shit rolls downhill. They are all stone-cold psychopathic! Talk about a case of the pots calling the kettles black!

tlb wrote:It is certainly true that both Marinescu and her bosses are equally culpable, but that does not imply they are all equally psychotic.
It seems to me that the leaders of the Onion, faithful to advancing their great Vision against the forces of Beowulf, are acting as a guerilla army in a quasi-religious war. The explosions on Mesa are both a terrorist attack aimed at implicating Manticore and a means of operational security to protect their biggest remaining secret: Darius.
A comparison with the actions of Warnecke can be made; but again it must be cautioned, just because he was crazy, that does not mean the leadership or members of the Onion are generally crazy also.

ldwechsler wrote:Let us recall that the British changed many cultures, sometimes for the better, as they created an empire and allowed many of their number to get rich.
And the US had little trouble justifying the Indian wars.


Sorry, but the attributions had gotten scrambled in the last post; moved some stuff around to make that clear.
If conducting a terror campaign against civilians is a sign of madness, then both USAF Curtis Lemay and RAF "Bomber" Harris were crazy for the "strategic bombing" campaigns that involved the fire bombing of cities in Germany and Japan (to include the two A-bomb attacks). Harris resisted attempts to shift to tactical targets and strongly resisted efforts to shift some long range bombers to convoy protection at a time when shipping losses were causing fears of losing the war. I think their enthusiasm for these campaigns is wrong, but they were not crazy given the situation.
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:38 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Are you really going to equate these wars, and resisting the inevitable inhumane subjugation and destruction of entire countries, with what the MAlign are doing? No one was at war with the MAlign when they partook in their centuries long missive to wage war against the whole of humanity and rewriting the depth and breadth of psychosis. There was no real need for what the MAlign undertook, other than the miscreant ripples of a kid scorned by the Beowulfan establishment.

Not for a single second would Britain or the US systematically kill their own children to any end. Own, in this case, means race. Sad to have to distinguish between the two in the U.S.'s case. As far as the Indian wars...

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:15 pm

Bluesqueak
Captain of the List

Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:04 pm

I think there's a moral difference between 'we will target the civilian workforce : some children may not have been evacuated' and 'let's nuke a school soccer match'.

The British government in World War II had to make a great many morally ambiguous decisions, some of which, with the 20/20 vision of hindsight, were wrong. Coventry may be a myth, but British Intelligence certainly tried to divert the V1 and V2 rockets to suburban areas. In fact, Coventry is such a potent myth precisely because we know the government made such brutal decisions between 'more deaths' and 'less deaths'.

In hindsight, area bombing wasn't as effective as Harris thought. But it did divert resources from the German front line, it did affect the workforce and it was a weapon in a formal, declared war - one in which both sides were targeting civilians.

Mesa is bombing its own children for the purpose of angering its own police forces. Seriously, just how sick can you get? The individuals may not be mentally ill; the society that can see that as a valid option is.
Top

Return to Honorverse