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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Dauntless   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:11 am

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while it is true crandall acted without consulting higher or attempting find out what really happened the sheer blow to the "invicible" SLN that came of her stupidity made it impossible for the mandarins to back off.

the mandarins are so committed to the "only the SL is civilised and we will make you civilised even if you don't want to be" that there was no way they were not going to respond via force.

now if not for oyster bay i'm not sure if they would actually have tried attacking manticore direct. more likely they would tried to get haven to do it for them and perhaps give them some scraps from their tech to make sure they won and when that didn't work they would probably try some kind of commerce raiding plan
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:00 pm

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I was watching one of the Star Trek Discovery episodes and one of the Discovery ships retrieved the memory core of a Klingon vessel. IINM, Honorverse ships also have something similar. I recall notions about wiping or dumping the ships computer memory, though I can't recall if there is a centralized core. In the aftermath of Raging Justice, the SLN ship's logs were sent back to the Mandarins intact, I think. Can't the Mandarins know whether their own computers have been compromised? Yet they doubted the veracity of their own logs and questioned whether the computer's memory had been altered. I may be misremembering it, but certainly the same option was on the table. There were many ships captured. Surely the memory of one ship could have been sent back untouched and uncompromised, in a way that there would have been no doubt in the absence of tampering.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:47 pm

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Dauntless wrote:while it is true crandall acted without consulting higher or attempting find out what really happened the sheer blow to the "invicible" SLN that came of her stupidity made it impossible for the mandarins to back off.


Which was kind of the point in prepositioning her to take action after Byng inevitably proviked an incident. The MAlign chose her and Byng because their anti-manty bias and lack of tact could be relied on to do exactly the wrong thing from the League's perspective.

Dauntless wrote:more likely they would tried to get haven to do it for them and perhaps give them some scraps from their tech ...


That would be worth a comedic short story! By the time the SLN would think of that strategy, the RHN would have laughed in their faces and declined to accept such obsolete military tech.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:55 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Dauntless wrote:while it is true crandall acted without consulting higher or attempting find out what really happened the sheer blow to the "invicible" SLN that came of her stupidity made it impossible for the mandarins to back off.


Which was kind of the point in prepositioning her to take action after Byng inevitably proviked an incident. The MAlign chose her and Byng because their anti-manty bias and lack of tact could be relied on to do exactly the wrong thing from the League's perspective.

Dauntless wrote:more likely they would tried to get haven to do it for them and perhaps give them some scraps from their tech ...



They are in the "never missing a chance to miss a chance" mode. They could have pulled back after Byng. But they were probably not even fully aware of what Crandall was doing.

What was worse? Admitting they had no control or accepting the loss? With Filareta, they clearly had stepped over the line. Trying to conquer an opponent is a clear act of war.

So they are stuck. Losing is something they would hate. Kingsford's proposals in the long run will not be helpful. Commerce raiding is tough when Mantie ships are not inside the League.

On the other hands, Mantie war ships can be all over the League and can damage the big shipyards as well. A big bureaucracy is ripe for espionage and Beowulf agents probably know where they key places are.

While there might be a lot of anger is Terra was hit, destroying the big Mars base would not get nearly as much anger.

Remember that planets that do not build a lot of ships don't have a lot of shipyards ready to build warships. Even in very dedicated workshops in Manticore it takes several years to build an SD(P). If should take even longer at unprepared planets in the League and we know they're unprepared because of the enormous inroads made by Mantie shipping in commerce.

They are up the creek so to speak.


That would be worth a comedic short story! By the time the SLN would think of that strategy, the RHN would have laughed in their faces and declined to accept such obsolete military tech.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:46 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:Which was kind of the point in prepositioning her to take action after Byng inevitably proviked an incident. The MAlign chose her and Byng because their anti-manty bias and lack of tact could be relied on to do exactly the wrong thing from the League's perspective.
It would have been really unfortunate for the Malign if the SLN had made Byng take some remedial courses in how to properly frame people after failing to properly do it the first time around. At a bare least they could have given him some courses like, I mean FFS the amount of fail demonstrated by him failing to trump up charges was astounding. At a bare minimum to be effective in SLN customs he should have had to take:
FRMP 101: Introductions to Frame Jobs
FRMP 107: False Confessions and How to Get Them
FRMP 201: Everyone's a Felon and How to Prove it
FRMP 212: How to Flip Crew Members
FRMP 213: How to Flip Officers
FRMP 345: Perjury Traps
FRMP 356: Finding Obstruction of Justice
FRMP 357: Locating Resistance to Arrest
FRMP 402: Reasonable Reasons to Always Fear for your Life

This guy couldn't even catch a Manty merchant ship! How will he frame someone who is actually careful and has lawyers on call?

Weird Harold wrote:That would be worth a comedic short story! By the time the SLN would think of that strategy, the RHN would have laughed in their faces and declined to accept such obsolete military tech.
I think the poster was referring to Haven giving the SL tech scraps. This would have been Haven's obvious play if the war continued. Also why Manticore and Haven basically had to make peace after Oyster Bay unless they wanted to become Solarian protectorates. The first person to start really losing can pass tech to the Solarians for assistance or spite, and the Solarian League can later swoop in and conquer them both.

Which could make skeptical minds question the GA official story. Awfully convenient for Mesa, the one group both Haven and Manticore really hate, suddenly turn into this army of genetic boogeymen with magical tech. Now they can conveniently justify an alliance, so the SL won't steamroll them both. ;)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by pnakasone   » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:47 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Which was kind of the point in prepositioning her to take action after Byng inevitably proviked an incident. The MAlign chose her and Byng because their anti-manty bias and lack of tact could be relied on to do exactly the wrong thing from the League's perspective.
It would have been really unfortunate for the Malign if the SLN had made Byng take some remedial courses in how to properly frame people after failing to properly do it the first time around. At a bare least they could have given him some courses like, I mean FFS the amount of fail demonstrated by him failing to trump up charges was astounding. At a bare minimum to be effective in SLN customs he should have had to take:
FRMP 101: Introductions to Frame Jobs
FRMP 107: False Confessions and How to Get Them
FRMP 201: Everyone's a Felon and How to Prove it
FRMP 212: How to Flip Crew Members
FRMP 213: How to Flip Officers
FRMP 345: Perjury Traps
FRMP 356: Finding Obstruction of Justice
FRMP 357: Locating Resistance to Arrest
FRMP 402: Reasonable Reasons to Always Fear for your Life

This guy couldn't even catch a Manty merchant ship! How will he frame someone who is actually careful and has lawyers on call?

Weird Harold wrote:That would be worth a comedic short story! By the time the SLN would think of that strategy, the RHN would have laughed in their faces and declined to accept such obsolete military tech.
I think the poster was referring to Haven giving the SL tech scraps. This would have been Haven's obvious play if the war continued. Also why Manticore and Haven basically had to make peace after Oyster Bay unless they wanted to become Solarian protectorates. The first person to start really losing can pass tech to the Solarians for assistance or spite, and the Solarian League can later swoop in and conquer them both.

Which could make skeptical minds question the GA official story. Awfully convenient for Mesa, the one group both Haven and Manticore really hate, suddenly turn into this army of genetic boogeymen with magical tech. Now they can conveniently justify an alliance, so the SL won't steamroll them both. ;)


You forgot one.
FRMP 501: Always have a someone else in the chain of command you can pin blame on.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by PalmerSperry   » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:11 am

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pnakasone wrote:You forgot one.
FRMP 501: Always have a someone else in the chain of command you can pin blame on.


I'm guessing that course doesn't cover remembering that you might be that person for someone else?
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:35 am

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PalmerSperry wrote:
pnakasone wrote:You forgot one.
FRMP 501: Always have a someone else in the chain of command you can pin blame on.


I'm guessing that course doesn't cover remembering that you might be that person for someone else?

FRMP 100: DENY. DENY. DENY. Caught on Camera. It wasn't me.

One of the biggest mistakes of universities is allowing applicants to slide with the most basic courses because the applicant, or their transcripts, say they don't need them. Right.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:34 am

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cthia wrote:I was watching one of the Star Trek Discovery episodes and one of the Discovery ships retrieved the memory core of a Klingon vessel. IINM, Honorverse ships also have something similar. I recall notions about wiping or dumping the ships computer memory, though I can't recall if there is a centralized core. In the aftermath of Raging Justice, the SLN ship's logs were sent back to the Mandarins intact, I think. Can't the Mandarins know whether their own computers have been compromised? Yet they doubted the veracity of their own logs and questioned whether the computer's memory had been altered. I may be misremembering it, but certainly the same option was on the table. There were many ships captured. Surely the memory of one ship could have been sent back untouched and uncompromised, in a way that there would have been no doubt in the absence of tampering.


Unfortunately the entire management structure of the SL is filled with political bureaucrats. There is no desire to beleive that they are receiving true information. It is much better for them to beleive that the logs have been adjusted to present a picture beneficial to the RMN than to the SLN, to enhance the RMN's reputation. Also, to allow that the RMN was able to take out a Battlefleet fleet so easily would raise questions about their own competance in allowing Battlefleet to become so out of date.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Dauntless   » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:08 am

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I think the poster was referring to Haven giving the SL tech scraps


not quite. It was meant as further proof that the SL have no clue what is going on, in that they would have believed that Haven would still have needed the help and would be grateful for whatever scraps the "mighty" SLN saw fit to give them.

the mandrins are still focused on the manties and beowulf despite having been informed that Haven stands with them. no-one in the SLN (well expect for that one analyst) has grasped that as haven didn't instantly loose the second war it has to have weapons/ships that can fight in the new era of missile warfare.

when they realise that all the big players of the Haven sector, and not just the manties have SD(P) etc the admirals running the intel sections will have heart attacks.

I wonder how they'll react when learn about BC (P). for someone who depends upon battle cruisers like Frontier fleet does I do believe they will be even more scary then a Nike or a SD(P) and barggoes has what 6 or so? about ready to commission.
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