Honorverse ramblings and musings

Weird Harold wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:No one replaces the Permanent Undersecretaries presumably because they have a track record of running things well, and it goes against Solarian norms for politicians to interfere overmuch in what should be political areas.

There's also the minor detail that there doesn't appear to be any mechanism for impeaching/removing bureaucrats. There's actually no formal procedure to put them in power, either. Regulations and Tradition govern how each permanent undersecretary get the job, but nobody has ever given any thought to removing them. (short of the back-stabbing and assassination -- character and literal enshrined in tradition.)

Which is asinine. What if the idiot in power suffers from dementia or something?

Does anyone except me wonder what kind of tech the Andermani has? The fact that they have approximately 200SDs? shocked me. How did they get to be so large? If they're not fighting wars they are not losing ships, but still.

If the RMN hadn't been brawling it out with Haven over the many decades and hadn't lost any ships they'd have, what, 400? Yet the RMN is more than twice as wealthy as the Andermani. It's all about the MWJ. Overly simplified bean counting?

cthia wrote:Which is asinine. What if the idiot in power suffers from dementia or something?

Does anyone except me wonder what kind of tech the Andermani has? The fact that they have approximately 200SDs? shocked me. How did they get to be so large? If they're not fighting wars they are not losing ships, but still.

If the RMN hadn't been brawling it out with Haven over the many decades and hadn't lost any ships they'd have, what, 400? Yet the RMN is more than twice as wealthy as the Andermani. It's all about the MWJ. Overly simplified bean counting?

Up until recently, the Andermani was much larger than the Star Kingdom, with a larger military. Even back in their founding days, they had Battleships when no one else (but the sollies) had them. The Andermani empire had roughly 20 some planets in 1900 by slowly acquiring their neighbors over the years, and always had a large military. The RMN didn't surpass them for 3rd largest fleet until well into the King Roger buildup.

As for their tech, it was pretty much laid out in WoH that they were just slightly behind the curve Manticore was setting. Remember, they rolled out the laserhead first in ~1870. In WoH, They developed podlayers on their own, DDMs, advanced compensators, great stealth, and pushed laserhead standoff ranges past 50,000 km, before they joined the alliance.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:Which is asinine. What if the idiot in power suffers from dementia or something?

Does anyone except me wonder what kind of tech the Andermani has? The fact that they have approximately 200SDs? shocked me. How did they get to be so large? If they're not fighting wars they are not losing ships, but still.

If the RMN hadn't been brawling it out with Haven over the many decades and hadn't lost any ships they'd have, what, 400? Yet the RMN is more than twice as wealthy as the Andermani. It's all about the MWJ. Overly simplified bean counting?

Up until recently, the Andermani was much larger than the Star Kingdom, with a larger military. Even back in their founding days, they had Battleships when no one else (but the sollies) had them. The Andermani empire had roughly 20 some planets in 1900 by slowly acquiring their neighbors over the years, and always had a large military. The RMN didn't surpass them for 3rd largest fleet until well into the King Roger buildup.

As for their tech, it was pretty much laid out in WoH that they were just slightly behind the curve Manticore was setting. Remember, they rolled out the laserhead first in ~1870. In WoH, They developed podlayers on their own, DDMs, advanced compensators, great stealth, and pushed laserhead standoff ranges past 50,000 km, before they joined the alliance.

Thanks Theemile. I recall lyonheart giving me much of the same history lesson. Though it still nags me because Manticore, with the MWJ, pockets are insanely deep and it has always seemed to counteract their population imbalance compared to bigger entities with the sole exception of the area of BuPers responsibility of manning ships.

The IAN also seem to be running neck and neck to Haven had Haven not lost any ships -- bracketing Bolthole.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Up until recently, the Andermani was much larger than the Star Kingdom, with a larger military. Even back in their founding days, they had Battleships when no one else (but the sollies) had them. The Andermani empire had roughly 20 some planets in 1900 by slowly acquiring their neighbors over the years, and always had a large military. The RMN didn't surpass them for 3rd largest fleet until well into the King Roger buildup.

As for their tech, it was pretty much laid out in WoH that they were just slightly behind the curve Manticore was setting. Remember, they rolled out the laserhead first in ~1870. In WoH, They developed podlayers on their own, DDMs, advanced compensators, great stealth, and pushed laserhead standoff ranges past 50,000 km, before they joined the alliance.

Thanks Theemile. I recall lyonheart giving me much of the same history lesson. Though it still nags me because Manticore, with the MWJ, pockets are insanely deep and it has always seemed to counteract their population imbalance compared to bigger entities with the sole exception of the area of BuPers responsibility of manning ships.

The IAN also seem to be running neck and neck to Haven had Haven not lost any ships -- bracketing Bolthole.

Keep in mind that just before the Battle of Manticore, the IAN
had ships starting the conversion to Apollo.

The Andermanni have more planets but the Manties have more junctions. And at this point it does not really matter since they get along pretty well. The Andermannis pulled out of the Grand Alliance in a mutual move, actually aimed at Mesa. Things changed however.

It would not surprise me if they rejoined.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Up until recently, the Andermani was much larger than the Star Kingdom, with a larger military. Even back in their founding days, they had Battleships when no one else (but the sollies) had them. The Andermani empire had roughly 20 some planets in 1900 by slowly acquiring their neighbors over the years, and always had a large military. The RMN didn't surpass them for 3rd largest fleet until well into the King Roger buildup.

As for their tech, it was pretty much laid out in WoH that they were just slightly behind the curve Manticore was setting. Remember, they rolled out the laserhead first in ~1870. In WoH, They developed podlayers on their own, DDMs, advanced compensators, great stealth, and pushed laserhead standoff ranges past 50,000 km, before they joined the alliance.

Thanks Theemile. I recall lyonheart giving me much of the same history lesson. Though it still nags me because Manticore, with the MWJ, pockets are insanely deep and it has always seemed to counteract their population imbalance compared to bigger entities with the sole exception of the area of BuPers responsibility of manning ships.

The IAN also seem to be running neck and neck to Haven had Haven not lost any ships -- bracketing Bolthole.

ldwechsler wrote:Keep in mind that just before the Battle of Manticore, the IAN
had ships starting the conversion to Apollo.

The Andermanni have more planets but the Manties have more junctions. And at this point it does not really matter since they get along pretty well. The Andermannis pulled out of the Grand Alliance in a mutual move, actually aimed at Mesa. Things changed however.

It would not surprise me if they rejoined.

Silly me. One can't overlook the very big head start the IAN had, pointed out by Theemile. The RMN had to put their money in the piggy bank before they could begin embarking on luxurious expenditures like warships.

I suppose it has a lot to do with my own bias against them. I never trusted the IAN because they seemed to be a wild card throughout the series. Then their animosity against the Star Kingdom was fleshed out. They seemed to carry as much of a hardon against all things Manty as the SLN did. With their ever expanding nature and their attitudes against all things Manticoran, I always wondered if the two titans were headed for a clash down the road.

cthia wrote:
I suppose it has a lot to do with my own bias against them. I never trusted the IAN because they seemed to be a wild card throughout the series. Then their animosity against the Star Kingdom was fleshed out. They seemed to carry as much of a hardon against all things Manty as the SLN did. With their ever expanding nature and their attitudes against all things Manticoran, I always wondered if the two titans were headed for a clash down the road.

I would guess that, had non-conservative governments remained in power in Manticore, that no real military class was likely between the IAN and the RMN.

There was certainly a contingent of the IAN that disliked what they saw as Manticore's high handedness in Silesia. A place I assume the Andermani had viewed as a probable area of their eventual expansion for centuries - only to be disrupted relatively lately when the newly established Gregor to Basilisk trade route make it an area of interest to the smaller, more "upstart" RMN. (Something that had happened no more than 35 years before the start of the series).

But if not for the war with Haven I strongly suspect that Manticore would have accepted some realpolitik and eased the rising tensions with the Andermani; accepting their right to reach out to troubled systems willing to leave the Silesian Confederacy to join the Andermani Empire. I'm sure there would have been some horse trading involved, but I can't see a government run by someone who isn't a total idiot like High Ridge, pushing such a non-existential issue to the point of war with the 3rd or 4th largest navy in space. And support for Silesian soverienty simply isn't an exestential issue for Manticore. Nor is it likely to be all that large an economic one; if anyone once the planets are better run they'll be a bigger market and Manticoran hulls have an edge over anybody else for any goods heading through the Junction to markets in the League or around the Verge.

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:There's also the minor detail that there doesn't appear to be any mechanism for impeaching/removing bureaucrats. There's actually no formal procedure to put them in power, either. Regulations and Tradition govern how each permanent undersecretary get the job, but nobody has ever given any thought to removing them. (short of the back-stabbing and assassination -- character and literal) enshrined in tradition.

Which is asinine. What if the idiot in power suffers from dementia or something?

Since the only thing authorizing the various bureaucracies in the SL is the various bureaucracies and their regulations, the whole set-up is asinine and should be non-functional from the start.

An obviously demented or incompetent permanent undersecretary is going to get replaced (often post-humously) by his subordinates if the can't just ignore him as they do the nominal elected head of the bureaucracy.

In effect, the predecessors of the Mandarins pulled off a bloodless coup long ago and the rules for replacing Mandarins are whatever the Mandarins say they are at the time replacing a Mandarin becomes an issue.

Weird Harold wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:There's also the minor detail that there doesn't appear to be any mechanism for impeaching/removing bureaucrats. There's actually no formal procedure to put them in power, either. Regulations and Tradition govern how each permanent undersecretary get the job, but nobody has ever given any thought to removing them. (short of the back-stabbing and assassination -- character and literal) enshrined in tradition.

Since the only thing authorizing the various bureaucracies in the SL is the various bureaucracies and their regulations, the whole set-up is asinine and should be non-functional from the start.

An obviously demented or incompetent permanent undersecretary is going to get replaced (often post-humously) by his subordinates if the can't just ignore him as they do the nominal elected head of the bureaucracy.

In effect, the predecessors of the Mandarins pulled off a bloodless coup long ago and the rules for replacing Mandarins are whatever the Mandarins say they are at the time replacing a Mandarin becomes an issue.

Take a look at some of the supranational bureaucracies today. A lot of people can't stand the EU bureaucrats but nothing seems to be done about them.

For the Sollies, the real problem is that almost the entire population of the League is off-planet. As a result, not much can be done unless there is a disaster. And there hasn't been one YET.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:
I suppose it has a lot to do with my own bias against them. I never trusted the IAN because they seemed to be a wild card throughout the series. Then their animosity against the Star Kingdom was fleshed out. They seemed to carry as much of a hardon against all things Manty as the SLN did. With their ever expanding nature and their attitudes against all things Manticoran, I always wondered if the two titans were headed for a clash down the road.

I would guess that, had non-conservative governments remained in power in Manticore, that no real military class was likely between the IAN and the RMN.

There was certainly a contingent of the IAN that disliked what they saw as Manticore's high handedness in Silesia. A place I assume the Andermani had viewed as a probable area of their eventual expansion for centuries - only to be disrupted relatively lately when the newly established Gregor to Basilisk trade route make it an area of interest to the smaller, more "upstart" RMN. (Something that had happened no more than 35 years before the start of the series).

But if not for the war with Haven I strongly suspect that Manticore would have accepted some realpolitik and eased the rising tensions with the Andermani; accepting their right to reach out to troubled systems willing to leave the Silesian Confederacy to join the Andermani Empire. I'm sure there would have been some horse trading involved, but I can't see a government run by someone who isn't a total idiot like High Ridge, pushing such a non-existential issue to the point of war with the 3rd or 4th largest navy in space. And support for Silesian soverienty simply isn't an exestential issue for Manticore. Nor is it likely to be all that large an economic one; if anyone once the planets are better run they'll be a bigger market and Manticoran hulls have an edge over anybody else for any goods heading through the Junction to markets in the League or around the Verge.

I certainly agree with your assessment, but then Manticore doesn't seek war with other polities. Vice versa. I never doubted who'd be the aggressor if such a confrontation come to pass.

In High Ridge's defense, he never would have sought a confrontation with the IAN. But then, if the IAN sought confrontation and High Ridge was in charge it would have cost Manticore many lives.


****** *


There was a passage in SOV pointing out that this was the first time Solarian space had fallen to an enemy. I'd've thought something like that would have its, at least the core, citizens up in arms just as much as any US controlled region falling to an enemy. The sort of reaction not courted by the Harrington Doctrine.

cthia wrote:There was a passage in SOV pointing out that this was the first time Solarian space had fallen to an enemy. I'd've thought something like that would have its, at least the core, citizens up in arms just as much as any US controlled region falling to an enemy. The sort of reaction not courted by the Harrington Doctrine.

i'm sure this has been covered before but i'll mention it again.

sollies are very insular. extremly so, in fact. except for odd weidos who go into international freight (something controlled by mostly very large sol based corporations who treat it like a game) or the nut jobs who sign up for the military of all things, then if it isn't happening in their star system then it is pretty much a none issue.

the league is not the US or any other country. it is closer to the british commonwealth. if something happens to Australia then to the people in a lot of uk, assuming it isn't a nuke etc, it is "hmm sucks to be them" .

the US reaction would be much the same. as there is even less of a connection beyond being another former uk colony and one that didn't even kick the annoying brits out but let them leave when they got fed up.

you might have some local system to the captured star start worrying but to the core everyone outside the core is a barbarian despite the polite fiction that the shell and verge are civilised because they belong to the league.