Speciation

It was mentioned that Thande Palane's planet, had it been isolated for a few more generations, might have finished sliding across the threshold of being a different species. The possibility of a lost colony somewhere being different enough to be considered by some to be a different species would be interesting for someone to write about in a subsequent anthology, with moral implications of what makes a human coming into play. Alternatively, Manpower could have created a species that can't mate with human, perhaps due to the environment they inhabit.

Then there's the possibility of a line that has opposite chirality, either so they can settle a particular planet, or to create expensive slaves that guaranteed can't survive if they escape, guaranteed can't reproduce with normal humans, but can reproduce with their own kind.

NHBL wrote:It was mentioned that Thande Palane's planet, had it been isolated for a few more generations, might have finished sliding across the threshold of being a different species. The possibility of a lost colony somewhere being different enough to be considered by some to be a different species would be interesting for someone to write about in a subsequent anthology, with moral implications of what makes a human coming into play. Alternatively, Manpower could have created a species that can't mate with human, perhaps due to the environment they inhabit.

Then there's the possibility of a line that has opposite chirality, either so they can settle a particular planet, or to create expensive slaves that guaranteed can't survive if they escape, guaranteed can't reproduce with normal humans, but can reproduce with their own kind.

I'd certainly like to read that. Although RFC said no alien species, this wouldn't exactly count. A loophole? I wonder what their attitude towards humanity would be?

NHBL wrote:Then there's the possibility of a line that has opposite chirality,

This would be far more involved than any genetic modification and mess with the deepest levels of biochemistry.

cthia wrote:

NHBL wrote:It was mentioned that Thande Palane's planet, had it been isolated for a few more generations, might have finished sliding across the threshold of being a different species. The possibility of a lost colony somewhere being different enough to be considered by some to be a different species would be interesting for someone to write about in a subsequent anthology, with moral implications of what makes a human coming into play. Alternatively, Manpower could have created a species that can't mate with human, perhaps due to the environment they inhabit.

Then there's the possibility of a line that has opposite chirality, either so they can settle a particular planet, or to create expensive slaves that guaranteed can't survive if they escape, guaranteed can't reproduce with normal humans, but can reproduce with their own kind.

I'd certainly like to read that. Although RFC said no alien species, this wouldn't exactly count. A loophole? I wonder what their attitude towards humanity would be?

The most recent data says that it takes an average of 5 million years for a single primate lineage to diverge far enough that they can't interbreed.

Also, the concept of "species" is pretty loose. I saw a respected biologist define it as "Whatever you need for the paper you're writing."

This mostly looks like Eric Flint writing whatever he pleases, and don't worry if it makes scientific sense.

Also, there are a large number of intelligent aliens: treecats, Beowulf Gremlins, whaterver that 3-legged critter was on Basilisk. He also said somewhere that there was a star-faring alien race on the other side, with three planets.

cthia wrote:

NHBL wrote:It was mentioned that Thande Palane's planet, had it been isolated for a few more generations, might have finished sliding across the threshold of being a different species. The possibility of a lost colony somewhere being different enough to be considered by some to be a different species would be interesting for someone to write about in a subsequent anthology, with moral implications of what makes a human coming into play. Alternatively, Manpower could have created a species that can't mate with human, perhaps due to the environment they inhabit.

Then there's the possibility of a line that has opposite chirality, either so they can settle a particular planet, or to create expensive slaves that guaranteed can't survive if they escape, guaranteed can't reproduce with normal humans, but can reproduce with their own kind.

I'd certainly like to read that. Although RFC said no alien species, this wouldn't exactly count. A loophole? I wonder what their attitude towards humanity would be?

JohnRoth wrote:The most recent data says that it takes an average of 5 million years for a single primate lineage to diverge far enough that they can't interbreed.

Also, the concept of "species" is pretty loose. I saw a respected biologist define it as "Whatever you need for the paper you're writing."

This mostly looks like Eric Flint writing whatever he pleases, and don't worry if it makes scientific sense.

Also, there are a large number of intelligent aliens: treecats, Beowulf Gremlins, whaterver that 3-legged critter was on Basilisk. He also said somewhere that there was a star-faring alien race on the other side, with three planets.

Of course, that's the ETA for a cautious methodical entity, nature, to pull it off. The MAlign, if given their malignant way, will have mankind unrecognizable in much less time than that. Who knows what humanity will actually be then, much less what it will appear to be.

JohnRoth wrote:

cthia wrote:[
I'd certainly like to read that. Although RFC said no alien species, this wouldn't exactly count. A loophole? I wonder what their attitude towards humanity would be?

The most recent data says that it takes an average of 5 million years for a single primate lineage to diverge far enough that they can't interbreed.

Also, the concept of "species" is pretty loose. I saw a respected biologist define it as "Whatever you need for the paper you're writing."

This mostly looks like Eric Flint writing whatever he pleases, and don't worry if it makes scientific sense.

Also, there are a large number of intelligent aliens: treecats, Beowulf Gremlins, whaterver that 3-legged critter was on Basilisk. He also said somewhere that there was a star-faring alien race on the other side, with three planets.

There are a lot of things in evolution that seem to be changing. I read recently that on the Galapagos, a finch from one island wound up on another where his type had never been. Somehow he had managed to mate with a finch from the new island.

But all of their hybrid offspring were rejected by the island's regular finches and so now interbreed.

Voila, a new species. Keep in mind that the definition of species is changing thanks to legal decisions.

We can note that even Manpower, despite its willingness to do just about anything, still kept its products within the human species line, able to mate.

I would like to remind everyone that all European descended humans have Neandertal genes to one extent or another as a result of mating 50,000-60,000 years ago, this despite the fact that Neandertals split from the line that modern humans between 400,000 and 800,000 years ago, so it takes a long time for humans to be genetically incompatable, if ever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

Keith_w wrote:I would like to remind everyone that all European descended humans have Neandertal genes to one extent or another as a result of mating 50,000-60,000 years ago, this despite the fact that Neandertals split from the line that modern humans between 400,000 and 800,000 years ago, so it takes a long time for humans to be genetically incompatable, if ever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

True. But all we know about the speed of creating new species, which can't interbred anymore with the one it develops from - or another variation, developed independently from the same origin - comes from 1 source only, so far: and thats the development of the species on this one planet we currently live on. Which has, admittedly, many different environments to offer, but nothing so extrem as, say, different gravitation on different places, or different compositions of the air to breath.

The worlds in the Honorverse, on the other hand, which were settled by mankind, have such environments to offer - think only about planets as different as Manticore, Grayson and San Martin. Or Thandis homeworld, Ndebele.
So, the development of new species, even without human meddling included, will go far faster - or that's my opinion, at least.

RFC said there wouldn't be any techniclay advanced alien species. There won't be any invading alien fleets or humans dealing with multiple species of space-faring aliens with seperate empires or federations or even trade agreements.
If memory serves, when she first got a good look and understanding of what Climbes Quicly was, Stephany Harrington realized she had just encountered the 11th sentient alien species (a bit iffy on the Arfaines (spelling) because in that novella there were still only "ruins" and no known living of that species).
Manticore won't have to deal with Gorba, Klingons, Hani (or Kiff)......just more humans, and that is bad enough.

Brigade XO wrote:RFC said there wouldn't be any techniclay advanced alien species. There won't be any invading alien fleets or humans dealing with multiple species of space-faring aliens with seperate empires or federations or even trade agreements.
If memory serves, when she first got a good look and understanding of what Climbes Quicly was, Stephany Harrington realized she had just encountered the 11th sentient alien species (a bit iffy on the Arfaines (spelling) because in that novella there were still only "ruins" and no known living of that species).
Manticore won't have to deal with Gorba, Klingons, Hani (or Kiff)......just more humans, and that is bad enough.

In terms of speciation, I think RFC was wrong. Even under extreme conditions, there could probably be interbreeding. Eventually it might need some assistance but it could be done.

Note that Thandi, a particularly variated individual, had no problems coupling with Victor.