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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:28 am

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The SLN is the largest navy.

Haven's navy has been #2 since the beginning of the series.

The RMN has been #3 since OBS, when it had ~ 300 wallers.

In 1920, the RMN was pushing 350, IAN was ~300, and GSN was >200.

They are in the top 1% (~25) of navies. The other 22 have fewer than 300 SDs, but more than 8. (the top 1% each have a squadron or more.)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:31 am

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Hegemon wrote:
Yes, exactly. And if the Mandarins can manipulate their nominal civilian superiors, my whole point on (soft or harsh) military coups was: why hasn't Rajani (or a previous CNO) cajoled, bribed or threatened his nominal civilian superior (the Minister of Defence) into becoming his lapdog like the other Mandarins have with their superiors. Unlike the civilian bureaucrats, the SLN is rich enough to bribe anybody and also has 2000 SDs in comission, aka "the final argument of kings" to use against anybody who doesn't toe the line.

The SLN is funded with the spare change left in the Mandarins pockets once the expensive stuff gets done. The SL is very wealthy, the SLN is not very expensive.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by tlb   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:42 am

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munroburton wrote:There are two kinds of seniority. The first is 'time in grade', where the 4 star Admiral who has been one for 10 years is senior to the 4 star Admiral who has been one for 5 years.


cthia wrote:Nope. Don't like that at all. That means Honor can lose out on a position of which she is most likely more qualified, because she only had 'time in grade' of 1 year as opposed to 10.



ldwechsler wrote:They don't seem to do it that way. After all, Honor got a full fleet. There are not that many fleets and there are probably more admirals with seniority to her.

Seniority matters in some things...discipline for example. And we saw the problem with Young's refusal to obey Honor's orders in Short Victorious War.

But note that she was in a more important position than Young despite his having seniority in rank over her.

Also, pre-war. admirals were shifted around.

At the current time, Honor is the only five star admiral because she had Home Fleet.

Seniority is not all that simple.

There is an additional consideration: although Commodore has sometimes been an actual rank in history, there have been other times where it is a temporary promotion in order to carry out a particular assignment.
So the Admiralty can brevet a particular person to a Commodore tank to carry out an assignment where they command other Captains, where some may have more seniority.
Brevet rank can be to any rank that makes a unit commander superior their subordinates, but is just temporary based on a particular assignment.
Last edited by tlb on Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:49 am

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drinksmuchcoffee wrote:The real question to me is why did Kingsford take the job?

He has to know after Filareta that the war he has inherited is going to be far and away the ugliest war the League has ever fought. He has to know that as CNO that even if he manages to win that war he is going to be blamed for how ugly it is likely to be. For that matter the whole top tier of Battle Fleet is likely to be replaced, one way or the other, before the war is over.

And that is ignoring that unless he is completely brain dead, he has to at least suspect that there is another player on the board that he hasn't identified yet.

So the smart thing to do would be to take early retirement and either have a comfortable sinecure on a beach somewhere or be a consultant for a defense contractor.


I don't have the text in front of me but I am pretty sure that Kingsford is a deep MA agent, and what better place for a deep MA agent than in charge of the navy of the people you want to destroy?
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by tonyz   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:08 pm

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One of the things to keep in mind about navies and coups is that navies very seldom pull them off -- they don't have the manpower to control non-space facilities. (Yes, there are marines and kinetic energy support weapons -- but the League doesn't begin to have enough Marines to occupy a single major planet, and kinetic strikes can only destroy, not occupy. Note the usual Fringe thing is to provide overwatch fire and occasional cadre support for local units, not to take over planets from scratch.)

Yes, if the SLN could get some ground forces, it probably could take over if it could do enough planning to get the thing done and launch it. But I don't think the institutional rot has gone that far yet. You'd have to get a lot of people on board for a planet-size occupation force to be ready to go, and "three can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

I agree that political vetting likely has a major impact on League admiralty promotion...
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:23 pm

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tonyz wrote:One of the things to keep in mind about navies and coups is that navies very seldom pull them off -- they don't have the manpower to control non-space facilities. (Yes, there are marines and kinetic energy support weapons -- but the League doesn't begin to have enough Marines to occupy a single major planet, and kinetic strikes can only destroy, not occupy. Note the usual Fringe thing is to provide overwatch fire and occasional cadre support for local units, not to take over planets from scratch.)

Yes, if the SLN could get some ground forces, it probably could take over if it could do enough planning to get the thing done and launch it. But I don't think the institutional rot has gone that far yet. You'd have to get a lot of people on board for a planet-size occupation force to be ready to go, and "three can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

I agree that political vetting likely has a major impact on League admiralty promotion...


I'm not certain where you got this assertion. The SLN sent 1/2 a million Marines to capture Manticore, without anyone noticing they were gone.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:24 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
drinksmuchcoffee wrote:The real question to me is why did Kingsford take the job?

He has to know after Filareta that the war he has inherited is going to be far and away the ugliest war the League has ever fought. He has to know that as CNO that even if he manages to win that war he is going to be blamed for how ugly it is likely to be. For that matter the whole top tier of Battle Fleet is likely to be replaced, one way or the other, before the war is over.

And that is ignoring that unless he is completely brain dead, he has to at least suspect that there is another player on the board that he hasn't identified yet.

So the smart thing to do would be to take early retirement and either have a comfortable sinecure on a beach somewhere or be a consultant for a defense contractor.


I don't have the text in front of me but I am pretty sure that Kingsford is a deep MA agent, and what better place for a deep MA agent than in charge of the navy of the people you want to destroy?


Textev? Gweon is the deep cover pulling his strings. Rampajet was in the Malign's pocket, until he sucked on a pulser.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:46 pm

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Theemile wrote:
drinksmuchcoffee wrote:The real question to me is why did Kingsford take the job?

He has to know after Filareta that the war he has inherited is going to be far and away the ugliest war the League has ever fought. He has to know that as CNO that even if he manages to win that war he is going to be blamed for how ugly it is likely to be. For that matter the whole top tier of Battle Fleet is likely to be replaced, one way or the other, before the war is over.

And that is ignoring that unless he is completely brain dead, he has to at least suspect that there is another player on the board that he hasn't identified yet.

Actually, you have to be careful about having too many agents in an area. If one is caught, he/she can name others.

Kingsford could want the job because he's been waiting for it much of his life. Lots of prestige, etc. And he had a perfect
patsy in Rajampat. Blame it all on him.

There are clearly agents in place but Kingsford actually came up with a reasonable solution. That argues against his being a MAlign agent.

And I would guess Gweon would love to show how badly the mandarins have been infiltrated. Great way to break up the League. And he'll be the good guy!


So the smart thing to do would be to take early retirement and either have a comfortable sinecure on a beach somewhere or be a consultant for a defense contractor.


I don't have the text in front of me but I am pretty sure that Kingsford is a deep MA agent, and what better place for a deep MA agent than in charge of the navy of the people you want to destroy?


Textev? Gweon is the deep cover pulling his strings. Rampajet was in the Malign's pocket, until he sucked on a pulser.[/quote]
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by phillies   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:50 pm

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Another player on the board? Not seeing this does not make him worse than RMN intelligence, which should reasonably have concluded before the gang of two returned with their guest that It wasn't the SLN, it was not Haven, and therefore one of the alternatives was the Orglon Empire starting to nibble on humans.

drinksmuchcoffee wrote:The real question to me is why did Kingsford take the job?

He has to know after Filareta that the war he has inherited is going to be far and away the ugliest war the League has ever fought. He has to know that as CNO that even if he manages to win that war he is going to be blamed for how ugly it is likely to be. For that matter the whole top tier of Battle Fleet is likely to be replaced, one way or the other, before the war is over.

And that is ignoring that unless he is completely brain dead, he has to at least suspect that there is another player on the board that he hasn't identified yet.

So the smart thing to do would be to take early retirement and either have a comfortable sinecure on a beach somewhere or be a consultant for a defense contractor.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:45 pm

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phillies wrote:Another player on the board? Not seeing this does not make him worse than RMN intelligence, which should reasonably have concluded before the gang of two returned with their guest that It wasn't the SLN, it was not Haven, and therefore one of the alternatives was the Orglon Empire starting to nibble on humans.

Who is the Orglan empire?
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