Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"

aairfccha wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:Locking a gene shouldn't be all that hard. You can probably just tack it onto the end of a chromosome. Maybe 14 or something. Nothing for it to be exchanged with.

Without special tricks, that modification still has to pass the stochastic remixing of chromosomes at play during sexual reproduction to make it into the next generation.

Sorry, I should have said "locking genes together" or maybe "keeping genes together".

Brigade XO wrote:Locking the modifications in, such as described for the Meyerdal mods implies that EVERYTHING in the gene mix for the indivudal traits is going to be both passed down to the suceeding generations AND will be dominant (requiring only one of the gene pair grouping for that specific mod) reguardless of what each suceeding generationg gets for genes from indivicuals who do not have the Meyerdal mods.

You can just use a nice gene drive.

JohnRoth wrote:This isn't quite right. The real issue is to make sure the modification gets inherited in an all-or-nothing fashion when mated to a baseline.

All or nothing inheritance easy. Actually we see it with the Y-chromosome. As long the DNA you want together is always a) all grouped together and b) setting it up so you won't get any recombination in that area. This is why I suggested the end of a chromosome. Nothing to swap with.


I wonder if the Scrags used a gene drive? I would assume so. Which would either mean the scrag package did a number on their evolutionary fitness, or Earth has an awful lot of scrags!

Given all of the detailed work that has to have been done for successful genetic modification, wouldn't most of it be reused frequently?
If that were the case, skilled Geneticists should be able to quickly identify "Detweiler" frequently used genetic code and even, by statistical analysis, tell the difference between Alpha and Beta Lines at least, and use this to screen for possible Malign infiltration?
This combined with unwitting victims, which treecats could absolutely determine, and exonerate, could have profound plot implications

HonorableFan wrote:Given all of the detailed work that has to have been done for successful genetic modification, wouldn't most of it be reused frequently?
If that were the case, skilled Geneticists should be able to quickly identify "Detweiler" frequently used genetic code and even, by statistical analysis, tell the difference between Alpha and Beta Lines at least, and use this to screen for possible Malign infiltration?
This combined with unwitting victims, which treecats could absolutely determine, and exonerate, could have profound plot implications

Given we saw a hand held device in CoS that could identify the planetary origin and familial connections of DNA samples wafting on the air from someone who passed hours earlier, a Malign detector shouldn't be too hard once enough samples are collected and analyzed.

HonorableFan wrote:Given all of the detailed work that has to have been done for successful genetic modification, wouldn't most of it be reused frequently?
If that were the case, skilled Geneticists should be able to quickly identify "Detweiler" frequently used genetic code and even, by statistical analysis, tell the difference between Alpha and Beta Lines at least, and use this to screen for possible Malign infiltration?
This combined with unwitting victims, which treecats could absolutely determine, and exonerate, could have profound plot implications

Sort of. But not really. They could scan down people who have Mesan gene mods in them pretty easy. But only a tiny fraction of those people are going to be infiltrators. Even if the investigators assume they can clear slaves and descendants of slaves, the infiltrator families don't induct every kid into the cult. Furthermore Mesa makes its genetic services available to outsiders. The problem is it is likely frowned upon so they won't want to admit it.

Now our detector would ping several groups.

1) The children of elite medical tourists. They will almost certainly have access to lots of resources. While their is probably a slight chance of cooperation, they will likely either a) tell you to bugger off without answering questions b) counter attack via the media or legal system c) lie to cover up an embarrassing truth or d) be ignorant of their heritage.

2) Descendants of infiltrator lines who have gotten "lost". They might cooperate, but they also might a) tell you to bugger off, b) counter attack, c) lie about their heritage (if they somehow found out) or d) be ignorant of their heritage.

3) Actual infiltrators who will either tell you to a) bugger off or b) counter attack with the media or legal system.

4) Descendants of slaves

Unfortunately, the only liars are going to be people who are actually innocent. Worse, people have the annoying tendency to equate falsehoods with deception. Which would mean the investigators are now focusing on the innocent.

The real problem with this is that Haven and Manticore have decent privacy laws. People are unlikely to be amused by the government scanning everyone's DNA. Worse, if they try and do it in secret it makes a perfect target for investigative reporters to hit. (O'Hanrahan says hi!)

One bad scenario is the infiltrators discover the illegal DNA scanning, promptly expose the government, get the people behind the conspiracy prosecuted and jailed then promptly use their new found prominence to achieve political power. Also Mesa could whip up targeted bioweapons and the infiltrators could insinuate the government is at fault, either due to allowing terrorists to get the data, or that the government itself was behind it!

Free Bonus: Accuse whoever does this of anti-genie racism. Then you can flip Torch and Beowulf over to the RF.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

HonorableFan wrote:Given all of the detailed work that has to have been done for successful genetic modification, wouldn't most of it be reused frequently?
If that were the case, skilled Geneticists should be able to quickly identify "Detweiler" frequently used genetic code and even, by statistical analysis, tell the difference between Alpha and Beta Lines at least, and use this to screen for possible Malign infiltration?
This combined with unwitting victims, which treecats could absolutely determine, and exonerate, could have profound plot implications

Sort of. But not really. They could scan down people who have Mesan gene mods in them pretty easy. But only a tiny fraction of those people are going to be infiltrators. Even if the investigators assume they can clear slaves and descendants of slaves, the infiltrator families don't induct every kid into the cult. Furthermore Mesa makes its genetic services available to outsiders. The problem is it is likely frowned upon so they won't want to admit it.

Now our detector would ping several groups.

1) The children of elite medical tourists. They will almost certainly have access to lots of resources. While their is probably a slight chance of cooperation, they will likely either a) tell you to bugger off without answering questions b) counter attack via the media or legal system c) lie to cover up an embarrassing truth or d) be ignorant of their heritage.

2) Descendants of infiltrator lines who have gotten "lost". They might cooperate, but they also might a) tell you to bugger off, b) counter attack, c) lie about their heritage (if they somehow found out) or d) be ignorant of their heritage.

3) Actual infiltrators who will either tell you to a) bugger off or b) counter attack with the media or legal system.

4) Descendants of slaves

Unfortunately, the only liars are going to be people who are actually innocent. Worse, people have the annoying tendency to equate falsehoods with deception. Which would mean the investigators are now focusing on the innocent.

The real problem with this is that Haven and Manticore have decent privacy laws. People are unlikely to be amused by the government scanning everyone's DNA. Worse, if they try and do it in secret it makes a perfect target for investigative reporters to hit. (O'Hanrahan says hi!)

One bad scenario is the infiltrators discover the illegal DNA scanning, promptly expose the government, get the people behind the conspiracy prosecuted and jailed then promptly use their new found prominence to achieve political power. Also Mesa could whip up targeted bioweapons and the infiltrators could insinuate the government is at fault, either due to allowing terrorists to get the data, or that the government itself was behind it!

Free Bonus: Accuse whoever does this of anti-genie racism. Then you can flip Torch and Beowulf over to the RF.

Scanning is now very simple. Remember in Crown of Slaves, the bad guys had a portable scanner.

And people have no control over their genes. Blaming them for things that happened a few generations ago is akin to Hitler's going after people whose families were once Jewish.

Let's keep in mind, however, that there will be huge progress in genetics.

In the last two days I read a story about how China is attempting a treatment for esophageal cancer by turning people's own cells into cancer fighters.

And in Real Clear Science there was a story of how a single change to a gene could turn a skin cell to a Stem Cell.

In a couple of millenia, there will be huge progress. Note how seldom doctors are mentioned unless it is to fix the damage from battles. And, of course, for reproduction. But not much on illness.

I had a thought, and perhaps this thought has been shared before (perhaps even by me), but what if the MAlign views adherence to their goals as a sign of good genes, and has unwittingly bred the "tunnel vision" of their goals (i.e., not just human uplift but proving Beowulf wrong, etc.) into their star lines? Not so much that it can't be overcome (e.g. by Jack McBryde), but a genetic predisposition toward it?

Peregrinator wrote:I had a thought, and perhaps this thought has been shared before (perhaps even by me), but what if the MAlign views adherence to their goals as a sign of good genes, and has unwittingly bred the "tunnel vision" of their goals (i.e., not just human uplift but proving Beowulf wrong, etc.) into their star lines? Not so much that it can't be overcome (e.g. by Jack McBryde), but a genetic predisposition toward it?

Sounds close to impossible.

Peregrinator wrote:I had a thought, and perhaps this thought has been shared before (perhaps even by me), but what if the MAlign views adherence to their goals as a sign of good genes, and has unwittingly bred the "tunnel vision" of their goals (i.e., not just human uplift but proving Beowulf wrong, etc.) into their star lines? Not so much that it can't be overcome (e.g. by Jack McBryde), but a genetic predisposition toward it?

I doubt that ever could be done. Limiting your "vision" would be counter productive for a leadership caste.

Also unnecessary. People would not learn of the goals until they were already pretty much inside the onion. And the overall idea of improvement of the human race just sounds so nice.

ldwechsler wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:I had a thought, and perhaps this thought has been shared before (perhaps even by me), but what if the MAlign views adherence to their goals as a sign of good genes, and has unwittingly bred the "tunnel vision" of their goals (i.e., not just human uplift but proving Beowulf wrong, etc.) into their star lines? Not so much that it can't be overcome (e.g. by Jack McBryde), but a genetic predisposition toward it?

I doubt that ever could be done. Limiting your "vision" would be counter productive for a leadership caste.

Also unnecessary. People would not learn of the goals until they were already pretty much inside the onion. And the overall idea of improvement of the human race just sounds so nice.

Here, have a little genetic indoctrination to go along with the brainwashing.

On second thought, there is absolutely no way the MAlign are psychopathic. They are beyond it.

cthia wrote:I had a thought, and perhaps this thought has been shared before (perhaps even by me), but what if the MAlign views adherence to their goals as a sign of good genes, and has unwittingly bred the "tunnel vision" of their goals (i.e., not just human uplift but proving Beowulf wrong, etc.) into their star lines? Not so much that it can't be overcome (e.g. by Jack McBryde), but a genetic predisposition toward it?

We keep talking about MAlign as if they are psychopaths but they are clearly not. They are wrong, that's for sure. But they believe their way is the best way to go. They want to improve people.

Note that this is different from Nazis who casually killed those they thought inferior and Communists who killed those who opposed them. Yes, they did kill opponents and yes, they did use Manpower, but they believed these were all necessary for their goals.

The ends justify the means. And, of course, in some ways that is true but not here. But they are not psychos. Notice that Marinescu, who is nuts, is despised by the bosses. The leaders believe in their vision.

It is horribly wrong but using words like psychopathic is simply wrong. Note that there was a lot of hand wringing over Simoes daughter even though they did in the end cull her. It was not casual.