Remaining holes in SLN intel

phillies wrote:

kzt wrote:A competent SLMC LTC could wipe them all out. And the perfumed princes of the SLN.

Couldn't take over the SL, but could "fix" the government issues.

Going back a book, what was the young lady's rank? The Marine?

As this has not happened, what is the likelihood that there are in fact hidden defense structures against this nonsense?

Well, one 'hidden defence' may be the fact that (to paraphrase Michelle Henke) the selection process of SLN flag officers seems to have the stringent requirement of lower than average IQ and common sense .

Seriously, there is one mechanism that worked historically during the Roman Republic and Georgian Britain (and worked well for the Havenite Legislaturists until the Pierre coup): to ensure that the flag officers were from the same class and even from the same families as the leading bureaucrats. There are hints that something like that is at least partially taking place in SLN, but it is not clear if it is due to conscious policy of the Mandarins.
However, there are many cases where such a policy is not enough on its own to prevent military coups followed by harsh military dictatorships. See for example the history of South America from the 19th century until now.

phillies wrote:

kzt wrote:A competent SLMC LTC could wipe them all out. And the perfumed princes of the SLN.

Couldn't take over the SL, but could "fix" the government issues.

Going back a book, what was the young lady's rank? The Marine?

As this has not happened, what is the likelihood that there are in fact hidden defense structures against this nonsense?

Hegemon wrote:Well, one 'hidden defence' may be the fact that (to paraphrase Michelle Henke) the selection process of SLN flag officers seems to have the stringent requirement of lower than average IQ and common sense .

Seriously, there is one mechanism that worked historically during the Roman Republic and Georgian Britain (and worked well for the Havenite Legislaturists until the Pierre coup): to ensure that the flag officers were from the same class and even from the same families as the leading bureaucrats. There are hints that something like that is at least partially taking place in SLN, but it is not clear if it is due to conscious policy of the Mandarins.
However, there are many cases where such a policy is not enough on its own to prevent military coups followed by harsh military dictatorships. See for example the history of South America from the 19th century until now.

Do pardon my bold.

Thus is the impetus behind my thoughts of why Rajani wasn't "properly" replaced. Kingsford's only qualifications, as far as I can glean from textev, is seniority. That certainly shouldn't be the litmus test to pass for that position. God forbid the next senior in line be a Pavel Young, Elvis Santino, Byng or Crandall. It's preposterous. It is why I always thought Kingsford was a temporary cog in the machine.

Do forgive my asking this question, but my memory isn't what it used to be. I think. Not realizing that Rajani was the real power in the League when I read A Rising Thunder...


and the Malign had his testicles in their hands, then why set him up for the kill? Why not keep him around as long as possible? Why eliminate not just your most powerful "contact" but the most powerful man in the League, who you already have by the balls?

The exchanges between Kolokoltsov and Rajani always led me to believe that Kolokoltsov was the real power and that Rajani was a loose canon in control of the navy. Things such as him twisting Article Seven. And statements like "His civilian masters."

It is such a confusing power structure to me.

cthia wrote:Thus is the impetus behind my thoughts of why Rajani wasn't "properly" replaced. Kingsford's only qualifications, as far as I can glean from textev, is seniority. That certainly shouldn't be the litmus test to pass for that position.

Adm Kingsford was second in command/CINC Battle Fleet. He would have been vetted for either or both of those positions -- although the vetting in the SLN would have been primarily political.

Once Rajampet committed suicide, he would have taken command as next in the chain of command. There is textev that he would require an official confirmation hearing before officially becoming the CINC of the SLN. Kolokoltsov told him that, as far as he was concerned that was a mere formality and Kingsford had the job.

I don't know exactly where Adm Kingsford stands as far as seniority, but he got the position of CINC by being the Vice-CINC.

cthia wrote:It is such a confusing power structure to me.

Only because you try to micro-parse things looking for stuff that's not there.

1. Rajani was never the real power in the League. He was the real power in the League Navy. The Navy was not, prior to extremely recent events, anything close to the most important part of the League government.

2. The Mandarins are not his nominal civilian superiors; the nominal SecDef and elected officials are. They control beuracracies that are larger and more important to the League, and so can effectively make Rajani's political superiors issue him orders, but have no direct command authority over him.

Hegemon wrote:Somewhat off-topic:
I want to discuss about the real hole in SLN collective intelligence: why no Admiral had enough sense to see plainly that the Solarian League was ripe for a military coup and to seize the opportunity with both hands. What I mean is that if the Solarian public accepted for centuries to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats, it would hardly bat an eyelid to be ruled by another group of unelected bureaucrats, this time the ones commanding SDs and BCs. After all, this is what SLN Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet are: two additional bureaucracies to the five main ones, but with all the real firepower.

At the current point in the books* the coup would fail because the SLN is NOT even the top dog in the Solarian League. They've fallen behind a number SDFs.

Even if that wasn't the case the Navy doesn't have any ship building capability of its own as far as I can tell. Its not a self-maintaining organization. So you'd need to use the iron fist to get systems to dispense functional, non-trapped ships. Except Battle Fleet has zero experience with doing that, or even anything approaching it.

Frontier Fleet has a little experience with ruling via the iron fist, but they're used to using puppets and much less developed planets. So they might have the skill base to try it, but they have no incentive to work with the jackasses over in Battle Fleet. Why help Battle Fleet with its coup, when they could do the same in their own little areas? As is being done in the Maya sector.

Frontier Fleet can't perform the coup on their own. They don't have anything larger than a battlecruiser, so they have no way to stop Battle Fleet from dusting all their bases. I mean, they could try putting battlecruisers up against all those dreadnoughts, but I don't think it would work.

*Minus the GA. Assume they get suddenly wiped out by say... aliens making a hyperspace bypass. They didn't realize the Haven Sector was inhabited. The aliens are really sorry.

Hegemon wrote:This idea stuck me when I re-read the 2016 revised edition of Edward N. Luttwak's classic "Coup d’État: A Practical Handbook" He defines three preconditions for a military coup to be practicable: a) the political participation must be confined to a small fraction of the population; b) the target state must be substantially independent; c) the target state must have a political center, or, if there are several centers, these must be identifiable, and they must be politically, rather than ethnically, structured. The Solarian League meets all the three conditions !

The Solarian League is actually missing "a" and "c". The political participation is widely distributed, and the political centers are widely distributed. While at a Federal Level its concentrated, the Federal Level isn't really important.

Now what we DO have is Frontier Fleet governors and planetary governments looking to conquer their own little empire. We've seen an example in the Maya sector in the book, and we've heard references to the later in an info dump. So the real question is why hasn't the Solarian League exploded? Answer: Its about too.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Thus is the impetus behind my thoughts of why Rajani wasn't "properly" replaced. Kingsford's only qualifications, as far as I can glean from textev, is seniority. That certainly shouldn't be the litmus test to pass for that position.

Adm Kingsford was second in command/CINC Battle Fleet. He would have been vetted for either or both of those positions -- although the vetting in the SLN would have been primarily political.

Once Rajampet committed suicide, he would have taken command as next in the chain of command. There is textev that he would require an official confirmation hearing before officially becoming the CINC of the SLN. Kolokoltsov told him that, as far as he was concerned that was a mere formality and Kingsford had the job.

I don't know exactly where Adm Kingsford stands as far as seniority, but he got the position of CINC by being the Vice-CINC.

Thanks. I suppose Kingsford himself was simply being modest...

ART Ch. 31 wrote:“Please, sit down, Fleet Admiral,” he said, and watched Kingsford seat himself. Once the naval officer had settled, Kolokoltsov sat back down himself and cocked his head. “I understand you’re Admiral Rajampet’s proper successor?”
“I was next in seniority, and that makes me the acting CNO, Sir,” Kingsford replied. “Filling the post on a permanent basis is a bit more complicated.

Bold and underline, mine.

Which is the formality, I suppose, brought up.

drothgery wrote:

cthia wrote:It is such a confusing power structure to me.

Only because you try to micro-parse things looking for stuff that's not there.

1. Rajani was never the real power in the League. He was the real power in the League Navy. The Navy was not, prior to extremely recent events, anything close to the most important part of the League government.

2. The Mandarins are not his nominal civilian superiors; the nominal SecDef and elected officials are. They control beuracracies that are larger and more important to the League, and so can effectively make Rajani's political superiors issue him orders, but have no direct command authority over him.

And to think I had the nerve and audacity to think the problem generally lies here in the forum, of most posters inability to apply what's on paper to how things actually work in the real world. Take the genetics discussions for example. (Mama Mia what's in those meatballs?)

Although I don't think that's fair and is grossly opinionated, I'm certainly guilty of that here, because I really don't see any of the aforementioned checks and balances in the oldest government known to mankind who, created checks and balances.

Even minus the corruption, I don't see any checks and balances in the structure of the template.

The real question to me is why did Kingsford take the job?

He has to know after Filareta that the war he has inherited is going to be far and away the ugliest war the League has ever fought. He has to know that as CNO that even if he manages to win that war he is going to be blamed for how ugly it is likely to be. For that matter the whole top tier of Battle Fleet is likely to be replaced, one way or the other, before the war is over.

And that is ignoring that unless he is completely brain dead, he has to at least suspect that there is another player on the board that he hasn't identified yet.

So the smart thing to do would be to take early retirement and either have a comfortable sinecure on a beach somewhere or be a consultant for a defense contractor.

cthia wrote:Thanks. I suppose Kingsford himself was simply being modest...

ART Ch. 31 wrote:“Please, sit down, Fleet Admiral,” he said, and watched Kingsford seat himself. Once the naval officer had settled, Kolokoltsov sat back down himself and cocked his head. “I understand you’re Admiral Rajampet’s proper successor?”

“I was next in seniority, and that makes me the acting CNO, Sir,” Kingsford replied. “Filling the post on a permanent basis is a bit more complicated.

Bold and underline, mine.

Which is the formality, I suppose, brought up.

Actually, he was probably just simplifying for a civilian. He may be the most senior Adm as well as Vice CNO, but he'd never get his foot in the door if he wasn't also next in the chain of command.

cthia wrote:Thanks. I suppose Kingsford himself was simply being modest...

ART Ch. 31 wrote:“Please, sit down, Fleet Admiral,” he said, and watched Kingsford seat himself. Once the naval officer had settled, Kolokoltsov sat back down himself and cocked his head. “I understand you’re Admiral Rajampet’s proper successor?”
“I was next in seniority, and that makes me the acting CNO, Sir,” Kingsford replied. “Filling the post on a permanent basis is a bit more complicated.

Bold and underline, mine.

Which is the formality, I suppose, brought up.

There are two kinds of seniority. The first is 'time in grade', where the 4 star Admiral who has been one for 10 years is senior to the 4 star Admiral who has been one for 5 years.

The second is seniority due to appointed position. For example, in the RMN, if Caparelli had a heart attack - Patricia Givens becomes the acting First Space Lord, despite "only" being a Vice Admiral, until such time as a formal replacement is confirmed.