Remaining holes in SLN intel

Bluesqueak wrote:
Don't confuse 'government benefits' with 'government job'. There's a difference between safety net benefits - where the whole point is that the recipients can't work - and paying for necessary labour, just as the private sector does.

And I suspect things like government provided prolong, and other medical services, are also considered a public good and not a direct subsidies or transfer payment.

(So, yeah, once you get down into the nitty gritty the government could, to some extent when not stopped by internal checks and balances, play games with what does or doesn't count as a payment/benifit in order to preserve or remove the franchise from people)


RFC also made a post at some point that in the SEM it is only imperial taxes and imperial direct payment/benifit that are measuered against each other to determine imperial franchise. A planetary/local government giving you massive direct subsidies doesn't affect when you're tax positive on the imperial level. (Though conversely I guess a massive planetary government tax wouldn't count towards imperial tax positive)

Bluesqueak wrote:I think you're missing the possible purpose

The purpose doesn't matter. What some judges think the purpose is might matter a little, but the good intentions don't magically make things better.

I'm sure RFC could get a bit more detailed about whether things like 'disaster relief' are considered 'benefits' - but since he's waxed eloquent about how horrible OFS are for mortgaging planets to the hilt to pay for disaster relief, I suspect Manticore considers disaster relief a 'public good' rather than a 'government benefit'.

Who decides what's counted as a benefit? A lot of disaster relief will be giving people money to rebuild their homes (or paying their bills). How is that different

Tax cuts - wouldn't disenfranchise anyone unless you also raise the tax threshold. They also have to get past the Commons. One penny, remember?

I thought it was just a flat income tax, nothing about a threshold, except in cases of war. If there IS a threshold for the flat tax that's even worse! It allows for the threshold to simply be spiked up to reduce the number of people who pay. That makes this whole thing much worse.

Regardless, people receiving benefits could be kicked off by any tax reduction.

Manticore, from the description, only has one tax - called income tax - and until the Havenite war build up, probably didn't need any income tax. It's there purely so that citizens make a direct contribution to their governance.

I had assumed that for the purpose of franchise a "fee" was just another sort of tax, and in that case there are obviously other taxes. Also there were tax credits offered to start ups in Talbott, which doesn't make any sense unless there are some sort of taxes ON those start ups.

Regardless, if "fees" are NOT taxes, this opens the door for massive abuse. Simply raise assorted fees for revenue then give people "assistance" so they can pay your new fees.

As for military personnel should be disenfranchised - I think the idea was tried out in Starship Troopers. But again, it misses the point of the Manticoran franchise. Military personnel are not receiving 'government benefits'. They are providing value to the Star Kingdom of Manticore (by defending it from all enemies, foreign and domestic) and are paid for providing that value. Ditto all other government employees who are working at something that is useful and necessary. Manticore needs every warm body available - it has money to burn, tech coming out of its ears, but until it became a Star Empire, it had a labour shortage.

Young proves that idea that all members of the military are benefiting Manticore false.

One way of getting those warm bodies to be officers is to offer a 'free' education in return for their labour. One way of getting those warm bodies to be ratings is to provide degree-level specialist training in return for their labour. In both cases the education isn't really 'free'. It's 'payment in kind', with an understanding that the trainee balances out the cost of the initial training by then serving in the military for an agreed number of years. The military reserves the right to 'write off' the payment in kind if someone is completely useless, but for most people attending Saganami Island, they're simply in a situation where they effectively pay for their education after they graduate, not before.

There is already a system for paying "after" you get something. Its called a loan. Having a fuzzy informal way to do it, just opens the door to abuse.

Don't confuse 'government benefits' with 'government job'. There's a difference between safety net benefits - where the whole point is that the recipients can't work - and paying for necessary labour, just as the private sector does.

Being a beached officer is a "job". But actually its sitting around collecting money for not doing work. Indeed its often a result of being too incompetent to actually serve and it that case it is the same as a government benefit, in all but name.

Quite frankly a lot of your points seem to be based around everyone acting in good faith, not only following the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. But we see that's NOT the case. Consider when the Opposition took over and then promptly used the "war" to hold off elections. We see Pavel Young getting command of a battlecruiser.

I think were are a little off topic. On topic: I think the main hole in SLN intel is probably the part where they have intelligent people make decisions and analyze the data. They probably have reasonably good intel from SDF observers, especially from first Battle of Manticore. That basically gives them the state of Manticore's tech.

ldwechsler wrote:Of course there are all sorts of taxes in America and some of the most regressive are the easiest to get through. Right now in Portland, OR you will pay about forty percent of a soft drink in taxes. The Costco there suggests you to neighboring towns to get your soda, etc.

What I THINK is meant by the Manticoran rules, those who get more in direct benefits (welfare, etc.) than they pay in taxes do not get to vote.

Yeah this isn't true. The Soda tax has so far failed so far to even get on the ballot for November for Multnomah County (not the city of Portland), and it was originally aiming for the winter election. And the regressive tax argument has been a huge argument against it. Also the only actual Costco in Portland is the one right by the 405 bridge to Vancouver, WA and sells most of its stuff to people in Vancouver, the two closest Costcos are both in Washington, which has a sales tax, and Oregon does not. People in Oregon will go to Washington Costco occasionally to buy Booze (especially after hours), as Oregon has only state run liquor stores, and Washington closed theirs. However, funny enough, both Washington and Oregon have the highest booze taxes in the nation, over 30 dollars a gallon (~14 for a 1.75 handle). Oregon has long been ok with 'Sin taxes' aka Liquor, cigarettes, etc. (Also funny enough, the state owned stores sell at about cost, so closing them in Washington caused all the prices to go up quite a bit, despite the repeal campaign promising lower prices).

quite possibly a cat wrote:I think were are a little off topic. On topic: I think the main hole in SLN intel is probably the part where they have intelligent people make decisions and analyze the data. They probably have reasonably good intel from SDF observers, especially from first Battle of Manticore. That basically gives them the state of Manticore's tech.

The SLN Intel is very rusty. From a practical point of view they did not need to be good as SLN had such an overwhelming fleet that they figured they would have won the war before reliable intel was needed.

But let us be fair space war fighting technology had not fundamentally changed in centuries even with the development of the laser head missile. It took the Havenite-Manticoran Wars to force the development of new technologies and tactics.

pnakasone wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:I think were are a little off topic. On topic: I think the main hole in SLN intel is probably the part where they have intelligent people make decisions and analyze the data. They probably have reasonably good intel from SDF observers, especially from first Battle of Manticore. That basically gives them the state of Manticore's tech.

The SLN Intel is very rusty. From a practical point of view they did not need to be good as SLN had such an overwhelming fleet that they figured they would have won the war before reliable intel was needed.

But let us be fair space war fighting technology had not fundamentally changed in centuries even with the development of the laser head missile. It took the Havenite-Manticoran Wars to force the development of new technologies and tactics.

The key factor is that they are being prevented from examining what's happening in the Haven/Manticore sector.

MAlign has managed to block real analysis. Remember all you need is a boss that will fire you if you report what he/she doesn't want to hear, and everyone will toe the line.

Back in the sixties, when I did a bit in terms of Intelligence, we were briefed that the Viet Cong/North Vietnamese had no chance because we were far ahead in tech. No one suggested that it might not make any difference.

The same thing has been going on in the League. Officers have continually been underestimating the Manties. More than a few months after Byng, the powers that be are minimizing the weaponry of the opposition.

That is deliberate. It could, however, provide a bit of a lifeline for the madarins. They will have people to blame...to turn into THE human sacrifice necessary.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Quite frankly a lot of your points seem to be based around everyone acting in good faith, not only following the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. But we see that's NOT the case. Consider when the Opposition took over and then promptly used the "war" to hold off elections. We see Pavel Young getting command of a battlecruiser.

That's probably because I'm living in a parliamentary democracy -and they're very attuned to the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, and to precedent. That's because 'the spirit of the law' IS one of the checks and balances. Technically speaking, a government with a majority can do whatever it damn well pleases. The other check and balance is that the following government can also do what it damn well pleases - including repealing every law the previous government passed.

Manticore, I think, does have a constitution - so it's possible the franchise can only be altered by altering the constitution.

Given that we are getting a bit off topic, and getting back on topic, I'd say that the big hole in SLN Intel is simply the 'not invented here' syndrome.The SL is the best, knows its the best, so any intel that says they're NOT the best is unreliable.

Bluesqueak wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:Quite frankly a lot of your points seem to be based around everyone acting in good faith, not only following the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. But we see that's NOT the case. Consider when the Opposition took over and then promptly used the "war" to hold off elections. We see Pavel Young getting command of a battlecruiser.

That's probably because I'm living in a parliamentary democracy -and they're very attuned to the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, and to precedent. That's because 'the spirit of the law' IS one of the checks and balances. Technically speaking, a government with a majority can do whatever it damn well pleases. The other check and balance is that the following government can also do what it damn well pleases - including repealing every law the previous government passed.

Manticore, I think, does have a constitution - so it's possible the franchise can only be altered by altering the constitution.

Given that we are getting a bit off topic, and getting back on topic, I'd say that the big hole in SLN Intel is simply the 'not invented here' syndrome.The SL is the best, knows its the best, so any intel that says they're NOT the best is unreliable.

There are a lot of points here.

First, no matter what a constitution says (and there is one for Manticore. It was actually changed at the end of War of Honor), it matters who well it is followed. I just read about the head of the Palestinian Authority that he is "in the fourteenth year of his four year term." Are the rules followed?

Second, there was more than a bit of favoritism in the Manticoran navy. Young had never done much; I believe that in Short Victorious War it was mentioned he had never been in battle before. Yet he was a captain well before Honor Harrington. Some of that might change but as Orwell put it "Some animals are more equal."

There is something to be said for "if we didn't invent it, it doesn't exist." The key though is you should be doing some checking. Imagine what might have happened if the war broke out 20 years in the future and all those tough defenses were in place and the missiles even more accurate. Maybe even the lighter ships would have a bit of Apollo.

We know from textev that there was finagling. It is also hinted by Gweon. There are a whole lot of investigators looking for hints of game playing on Earth. There probably will be orders blocking out any real attempt at analysis over the years.

Bluesqueak wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:Quite frankly a lot of your points seem to be based around everyone acting in good faith, not only following the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. But we see that's NOT the case. Consider when the Opposition took over and then promptly used the "war" to hold off elections. We see Pavel Young getting command of a battlecruiser.

That's probably because I'm living in a parliamentary democracy -and they're very attuned to the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, and to precedent. That's because 'the spirit of the law' IS one of the checks and balances. Technically speaking, a government with a majority can do whatever it damn well pleases. The other check and balance is that the following government can also do what it damn well pleases - including repealing every law the previous government passed.

Manticore, I think, does have a constitution - so it's possible the franchise can only be altered by altering the constitution.

Given that we are getting a bit off topic, and getting back on topic, I'd say that the big hole in SLN Intel is simply the 'not invented here' syndrome.The SL is the best, knows its the best, so any intel that says they're NOT the best is unreliable.

The spirit and letter of the law, broached in this discussion.

ldwechsler wrote:Back in the sixties, when I did a bit in terms of Intelligence, we were briefed that the Viet Cong/North Vietnamese had no chance because we were far ahead in tech. No one suggested that it might not make any difference.

The old joke of the meeting with president Johnson and the PM of Israel.
President asks “How is that you defeated 3 counties in 6 days and we’ve been fighting just one tiny country for 6 years?”
“President Johnson, you must remember we were fighting Arabs.”

cthia wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:

That's probably because I'm living in a parliamentary democracy -and they're very attuned to the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, and to precedent. That's because 'the spirit of the law' IS one of the checks and balances. Technically speaking, a government with a majority can do whatever it damn well pleases. The other check and balance is that the following government can also do what it damn well pleases - including repealing every law the previous government passed.

Manticore, I think, does have a constitution - so it's possible the franchise can only be altered by altering the constitution.

Given that we are getting a bit off topic, and getting back on topic, I'd say that the big hole in SLN Intel is simply the 'not invented here' syndrome.The SL is the best, knows its the best, so any intel that says they're NOT the best is unreliable.

The spirit and letter of the law, broached in this discussion.[/quote]

More to the point: The battles between Manticore and Haven are not secret. The public knows all about them. It would be very easy to get information...not necessarily all the details but enough that an analyst could learn a lot.

But no one seems to have done that. A single person could have done it had they been on Manticore. Just listening to gossip from ships that have been in Manticore or Haven would have given a lot of info.

Someone was stopping the gathering. That person is a traitor...for whatever reason they did it.