Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:
Thanks. I didn't think so. The following passage is why I asked. A passage whose inference I don't understand, btw, so enlightenment would be most appreciated. I think I missed something somewhere as to why Gweon thinks Beowulf is so important to the Manties...

SoV wrote:“In the meantime,” Kolokoltsov continued, “one of Admiral Kingsford’s intelligence people, a Captain Gweon, has produced a very interesting analysis of the real reason Manticore and Haven were so determined to get Beowulf into their corner. It makes interesting reading, and I’d like you all to consider it between now and tomorrow.” He smiled thinly. “If Captain Gweon’s right, then it could just be that there’s a quicker alternative to Admiral Kingsford’s commerce raiding when it comes to bloody in the Manties’ nose.”

Gweon is one of Kingsford people, so I wondered if Kingsford is "in the closet" Malignant.

Theemile wrote:No, Just Gweon, He and his fiancé are Malign agents. Officially, Captain Gweon (soon to be Adm.) just got the promotion to head an economic analysis unit after his boss had a pool accident or something of the like. He gave Kingsford (and Kolokoltsov) an analysis that in light of the Manticore/Havenite alliance, Manticore's economic power will eclipse the SL's in 15 years or less. In addition, the report said that the capability imbalance was so much that it was impossible to expect any direct military confrontation to succeed, no matter the odds stacked in the SLN's favor. There is a point of inflection in 5 years whee the SLN may be able to overtake Mantiocre militarily if sufficient construction and R&D focus can be made, then Manticore's growing economic clout will make that impossible.

The report also states that the Manticore/Haven's biggest weakness is it's merchant marine and suggests CA/BC commerce raiding and attacking neutral 3rd parties who trade with Manticore to send a message and spread Manticore's forces thinner.

Once again, reporting the truth, but especially the truth that the Align wants the SL to know, with the given options colored that way as well.

Thanks Theemile, I appreciate that. But what is the reason that Gweon thinks Manticore is interested in getting Beowulf in their corner? Manticore wasn't interested in absorbing Beowulf, as far as I can remember. They were leaving that up to Beowulf. Is it simply lack of Solarian intel again? Manticore already has a very pleasant long-lasting relationship with Beowulf. They are an adopted system if there is such a thing.

I'm assuming the way to "bloody the Manties' nose" is referring to the looming Beowulf disaster.

cthia wrote:Rajani was working for the MAlign.
O'hanrahan is working for the Malign.
Harahap was working for the MAlign.

Did I miss anyone? Btw, I didn't think that O'Hanrahan was a Malign agent, but simply anti-Manticoran. Is it a certainty that she is Malignant?

O'Hanrahan is Malignant I'm pretty sure. But she's way outer layer Malignant. Her job is to be an investigative reporter. Her cover is being an investigative reporter. I think she knows she got a superior genome and she occasionally gets "tips"/orders, but they're the sort of thing that helps her do her investigative reporting.

However, she hasn't been very anti-Manticorian. She's just an objective reporter, reporting the facts the best she can. The facts just happen to be super damning to Manticore. Its not O'Hanrahan who is anti-Manticore. Facts are anti-Manticore.



On Beowulf: I wonder how the Solarian League is planning to do damage? I suppose the simplest way would just to get an excuse to attack Beowulf, like how they're making weapons for the enemy, and blow everything they have to scrap. Burn the planet for good measure. Its not a war until they've done their plebiscite.

Or better yet point out you COULD do that. Use that to get a surrender. Manticore will be along to save them, so why would they risk it? Now you attempt two things:
1) Ambush above the Terminus. If this works the Manticorian rescue fleet is vapor. Maybe they'll take the N-space route or travel several light minutes in n-space before hypering though.
2) Stand up some ships over the planet, using your wedges to keep from falling. Close as possible to the ground. What's Manticore gonna do, fire down their wedges? I mean they could, but then they've just murdered a bunch of Beowulfians.

Then you can sue for peace. You'll still probably get lynched by Solarians still mad about how you murdered a bunch of civilians a few systems over, but that's another problem.

Hi cthia,

Which of the mandarins are MAlign agents has been discussed many times here and at the Bar, probably to the great amusement of His Celeryness.

Actually, the only one we know isn't a MAlign agent is Kolokoltsov, because we've read his thoughts, and they've clueless compared to what a MAlign agent would be thinking, though he is taking Manpower and Mesa's money etc [isn't everyone?].

OTOH, the rest of them have given indications from what they've said and done, and how they've said it that they are either MAlign agents or much better informed regarding Mesa and its plans than Kolokoltsov is, who they may be setting up as the patsy when they all disappear, even though he usually considers himself to always be the smartest man in the room.

Kingsford is also not a Malign agent, demonstrated by Gweon apparently being the nearest "agent of influence" the MAlign has to him, and its obvious his boss didn't die accidently.

However Abruzzi has said or done what the MAlign evidently wants, in particular in influencing Kolokoltsov, but we don't know who is his control, contact or liaison.

Nathan MacArtney has sometimes been characterized as not being smart enough to be used by the MAlign or anybody else [though obviously he is and has been used], despite rising to be one of the most powerful persons in the SL, yet has been saying and doing what the MAlign wants, the general conclusion being he might be as 'unguided' [actually guided or led] as Byng was, ie drinking the Kool-aid rather enthusiastically.

Omosupe Quartermain OTOH, has demonstrated she's not only anti-Manticoran but unusually familiar with the Mesan Genetics Board leaders and evidently supports their policies [from ART], while her economic forecasts and reports have supported the Mesan line that pits the SL against the GA.

Agata Wodoslawski is right alongside her in anti-Manticoran hostility, but has been more subtle in her approach IIRC.

Discovering which one's are indeed MAlign will be part of the fun in UC.

L

cthia wrote:

Andy33 wrote:quote="cthia"Rajani was working for the MAlign.
O'hanrahan is working for the Malign.
Harahap was working for the MAlign.

Did I miss anyone? Btw, I didn't think that O'Hanrahan was a Malign agent, but simply anti-Manticoran. Is it a certainty that she is Malignant?quote

O'Hanrahan is a Mesan Alpha-line, and is an actual Alignment member rather than just a hired hand - indeed in Shadow of Victory she is sent orders by Rufus Chernevsky, who is Colin Detweiler's deputy by then.

Theemile wrote:She also, when given the anti-manticorian story by a financial reporter, identified mentally both she and he as Malign members playing their parts.

I really don't recall that and I'm sorry I missed it, but do forgive me, I've only had one read through.

Are their any indications, or speculations in the forum, that the Mandarins have been infiltrated by the MAlign?

Around 1920 PD, the members of the Quintet and their offices were:

Malachai Abruzzi — Permanent Senior Undersecretary of Education and Information
Innokentiy Kolokoltsov — Permanent Senior Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs
Nathan MacArtney — Permanent Senior Undersecretary of the Interior
Omosupe Quartermain — Permanent Senior Undersecretary of Commerce
Agatá Wodoslawski — Permanent Senior Undersecretary of the Treasury.

That would simply stink to pink!

cthia wrote:

Andy33 wrote:quote="cthia"Rajani was working for the MAlign.
O'hanrahan is working for the Malign.
Harahap was working for the MAlign.

Did I miss anyone? Btw, I didn't think that O'Hanrahan was a Malign agent, but simply anti-Manticoran. Is it a certainty that she is Malignant?quote

O'Hanrahan is a Mesan Alpha-line, and is an actual Alignment member rather than just a hired hand - indeed in Shadow of Victory she is sent orders by Rufus Chernevsky, who is Colin Detweiler's deputy by then.

Theemile wrote:She also, when given the anti-manticorian story by a financial reporter, identified mentally both she and he as Malign members playing their parts.

I really don't recall that and I'm sorry I missed it, but do forgive me, I've only had one read through.

Are their any indications, or speculations in the forum, that the Mandarins have been infiltrated by the MAlign?

Around 1920 PD, the members of the Quintet and their offices were:

Malachai Abruzzi — Permanent Senior Undersecretary of Education and Information
Innokentiy Kolokoltsov — Permanent Senior Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs
Nathan MacArtney — Permanent Senior Undersecretary of the Interior
Omosupe Quartermain — Permanent Senior Undersecretary of Commerce
Agatá Wodoslawski — Permanent Senior Undersecretary of the Treasury.

That would simply stink to pink!

lyonheart wrote:Hi cthia,

Which of the mandarins are MAlign agents has been discussed many times here and at the Bar, probably to the great amusement of His Celeryness.

Actually, the only one we know isn't a MAlign agent is Kolokoltsov, because we've read his thoughts, and they've clueless compared to what a MAlign agent would be thinking, though he is taking Manpower and Mesa's money etc [isn't everyone?].

OTOH, the rest of them have given indications from what they've said and done, and how they've said it that they are either MAlign agents or much better informed regarding Mesa and its plans than Kolokoltsov is, who they may be setting up as the patsy when they all disappear, even though he usually considers himself to always be the smartest man in the room.

Kingsford is also not a Malign agent, demonstrated by Gweon apparently being the nearest "agent of influence" the MAlign has to him, and its obvious his boss didn't die accidently.

However Abruzzi has said or done what the MAlign evidently wants, in particular in influencing Kolokoltsov, but we don't know who is his control, contact or liaison.

Nathan MacArtney has sometimes been characterized as not being smart enough to be used by the MAlign or anybody else [though obviously he is and has been used], despite rising to be one of the most powerful persons in the SL, yet has been saying and doing what the MAlign wants, the general conclusion being he might be as 'unguided' [actually guided or led] as Byng was, ie drinking the Kool-aid rather enthusiastically.

Omosupe Quartermain OTOH, has demonstrated she's not only anti-Manticoran but unusually familiar with the Mesan Genetics Board leaders and evidently supports their policies [from ART], while her economic forecasts and reports have supported the Mesan line that pits the SL against the GA.

Agata Wodoslawski is right alongside her in anti-Manticoran hostility, but has been more subtle in her approach IIRC.

Discovering which one's are indeed MAlign will be part of the fun in UC.

L

Thanks. I certainly understand everyone's fixation on the possibility. It's just that it becomes rather difficult to fathom that one person, Gweon, can singlehandedly influence an entire gamut of ONI intelligence gatherers -- even if it is Solarian minds at the helm -- w/o another insider much higher up within the Mandarins. Logically, one's mind gravitates to the conspiracy theory that someone inside the Onion has gotten inside the Orange.

ONI consists of so many departments responsible for gathering, collating and analyzing intel, whose teams of people are responsible for filtering the noise. Daily briefs are read. Consider our own ONI...

The Nimitz Operational Intelligence Center

The Farragut Technical Analysis Center

The Kennedy Irregular Warfare Center

The Hopper Information Services Center

Considering Weird Harold's post about the mountainous pages of information that surely has to be at hand, the Mandarins would surely have aids responsible for condensing it all into daily briefs. How could Gweon influence entire teams within entire departments w/o help from inside the Orange?

Remember Napoleon's line about not blaming evil for simple incompetence.

I doubt any of the mandarins are actually MAlign agents. No need for it. Rajani was an agent who had been in place for generations.

A key problem for many intelligence groups is having too many agents in one place. They get in each other's way and compete for favor.

Yes, they hate Manticore. It has been in their way and it controls some key junctions. It is also rich and powerful. But they paid it little mind until recently. Why wouldn't a MAlign agent want to move on Manticore fifty years earlier.

Yes, Gweon can get information. He is in a key spot and, on top of that, the League is more like the UN than a regular nation. The economic data is available because traders (and they run entire planets) need it.

No one on the top group has pushed Gweon. Kingsford knows him but he was only a second in command and even he was not really known to the top mandarins.

The top leadership has been carrying MAlign's water but almost certainly were not aware of it. They have been unwilling to believe the truth but top leaders everywhere have shown a tendency to that.

There is something that I never brought up that was actually found floating around in my niece's head. It came up as a spinoff of discussions in the Eridani Edict Violation thread regarding the freezing of Winton blood to ensure succession under all circumstances.

What is preventing some entity like the MAlign from obtaining a sample of Elizabeth Winton's DNA and cloning it, then that birth staking a claim in the line of succession? Would he or she have a legal claim?

It is another example of how advanced technology can further catastrophic ramifications.

"I think you should take this sir. It is from a vessel just entering the system squawking the transponder codes of Malign I. He is claiming to be the son of Elizabeth Winton."

reread ecohes of honor. unless specially arranged before hand a clone can not inherit from its "parent". at least not on grayson if i remember correctly.

Dauntless wrote:reread ecohes of honor. unless specially arranged before hand a clone can not inherit from its "parent". at least not on grayson if i remember correctly.

Actuallly on Grayson it was unclear (then).

Manticore (and presumably most other systems) had adopted some form of the Beowulf code; which had long since addressed this.

Under that code a genetic clone is never considered the same person, nor do they have any automatic inheritance rights. Though if you get yourself cloned the clone would IIRC be considered your child and would have whatever inheritance rights any other child you had or adopted would have. But if someone else has you cloned then there’s no legal connection between you and that clone.

The one weird caveat is the you could, in your will, specify that you were to be posthumously cloned and the clone was to be your heir (Though you’d also need to make arrangements for running things and raising your clone until they reached their age of majority and were an adult)

ldwechsler wrote:Remember Napoleon's line about not blaming evil for simple incompetence.

I doubt any of the mandarins are actually MAlign agents. No need for it. Rajani was an agent who had been in place for generations.

A key problem for many intelligence groups is having too many agents in one place. They get in each other's way and compete for favor.

Yes, they hate Manticore. It has been in their way and it controls some key junctions. It is also rich and powerful. But they paid it little mind until recently. Why wouldn't a MAlign agent want to move on Manticore fifty years earlier.

Yes, Gweon can get information. He is in a key spot and, on top of that, the League is more like the UN than a regular nation. The economic data is available because traders (and they run entire planets) need it.

No one on the top group has pushed Gweon. Kingsford knows him but he was only a second in command and even he was not really known to the top mandarins.

The top leadership has been carrying MAlign's water but almost certainly were not aware of it. They have been unwilling to believe the truth but top leaders everywhere have shown a tendency to that.

Rajani was not a generational MAlign agent he was bribed to the tune of 4.6 billion SL credits IIRC.

saber964 wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Remember Napoleon's line about not blaming evil for simple incompetence.

I doubt any of the mandarins are actually MAlign agents. No need for it. Rajani was an agent who had been in place for generations.

A key problem for many intelligence groups is having too many agents in one place. They get in each other's way and compete for favor.

Yes, they hate Manticore. It has been in their way and it controls some key junctions. It is also rich and powerful. But they paid it little mind until recently. Why wouldn't a MAlign agent want to move on Manticore fifty years earlier.

Yes, Gweon can get information. He is in a key spot and, on top of that, the League is more like the UN than a regular nation. The economic data is available because traders (and they run entire planets) need it.

No one on the top group has pushed Gweon. Kingsford knows him but he was only a second in command and even he was not really known to the top mandarins.

The top leadership has been carrying MAlign's water but almost certainly were not aware of it. They have been unwilling to believe the truth but top leaders everywhere have shown a tendency to that.

Rajani was not a generational MAlign agent he was bribed to the tune of 4.6 billion SL credits IIRC.

I did not say he was a generational agent, I said he had been in place for generations. He was head of the navy for a very long time.

Yes, he was bribed. Chances are he thought the things he was ordered to do actually made sense.